I've spent so much time looking at and reediting this post, I am no longer sure it makes any sense. And, yes, the DVDs come out tomorrow, your point
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*sigh* I'm glad I'm not the only one who disliked the boxing episode. Is the extended cut the only one on the DVD's? (guess I'll find out later today)
Sure, months later, in the ring, after he’s had time to process, he is able to see that Kara was “protecting herself at all costs” and “running away”, but in the moment, he couldn’t see beyond what it meant for him and it sent him on a downward spiral. The weight gain started to make some sense to me. In a way, this was worse than the suicide attempt for me because it’s clear he just stopped caring.
It sounds like the extended version does give Lee's downward turn a better explanation. And I'm glad for that, because you're right, the jokes about the weight just cheapen the idea. Unfortunately, the way season three was actually presented made the whole story line... basically non-existent. He was fat, there were jokes, then he wasn't. I understood what I was supposed to think about the weight gain, but it was never really supported on the show.
I haven't checked my DVD's out thoroughly, but I think the extended cut is the only version we get. Which is why I still have the original on the DVR. ;)
Unfortunately, the way season three was actually presented made the whole story line... basically non-existent. He was fat, there were jokes, then he wasn't. I understood what I was supposed to think about the weight gain, but it was never really supported on the show.I completely agree with you. I always had an idea of what Ron was attempting to show and he certainly tried to explain in the podcasts what his intent was since we weren't seeing it on screen, but this extended cut did give me some concrete examples of why Lee became the man he was in early season 3. That he shared with Kara something he had never shared with another human being and then have her abandon him, something in him broke and he just said, "screw it". He created this life he had expected to lead and everyone else expected him to lead - military commander, married man, example for the fleet - but his
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Don't worry, the original cut is still there! As I was saying below, Ron and the other writer vastly preferred the aired version.
Yup. I love Kara, she's definitely my favorite character, but she's mostly incapable of doing anything outside of her own... I won't say best interests, because that's not the right phrase, but, um... outside of what she wants at the moment, which may or may not be in her best interests.
That's true - I don't think of her as selfish so much as profoundly self-centered, much of the time. As in, honestly incapable of seeing things from outside her own perspective. In the podcast they actually acknowleded this - there's a scene where she actually talks to Tigh next to Sam's passed out body and they acknowledge all the guilt and remorse she feels for what she's done to Sam and is about to do to Lee, but that she's so damaged that she honestly has no idea of a better way to act.
Heh. I railed about this (very briefly, and f-locked because I'm a big wimp) once on my LJ. Tyrol at least has the excuse of
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I don't think of her as selfish so much as profoundly self-centered, much of the time.
That's a good way of putting it. Kara would lay down her life for just about anyone in the fleet and that is not something a selfish person would do. And I honestly don't think she lies around thinking of ways to hurt people. She just doesn't think about the potential ramifications of her actions.
But then how would we feel about it if Lee punched Dee in the face, no matter what she said to him? I don't know... it seems like Kara is the only woman it's "okay" to hit, and I wonder if that's partly the writers making her code as male.
I'm not sure Kara is the only female that it's OK to hit. The female Cylons have taken some punches as well. But is that because they female Cylons are also viewed as machines? I agree, if Lee hit Dee or Adama hit Roslin, there would be a very different reaction from the audience.
Wow! Fascinating analysis. Now I really want to see this episode. Are there any other extended cuts in the DVDs?
I don't have a lot to say except I think your analysis of Lee sounds spot on given when I know from the originally aired cut.
And that I mostly agree with you about Dee. I...don't agree that she didn't have the right to be upset when Lee nearly left her (though I also think the most telling part of their relationship is the point at which she leaves him and it's then that some of her true motives for marrying him in the first place become clear: that being, like most others...she doesn't see who he really is and thinks he is an "Adama").
Basically, however she decided to commit to that relationship, she had the right to expect comittment in return. But I really, really lose respect for her when the writers try to play the "long-suffering I know you truly love someone else!" card. You say she says that she'll love him until Kara comes back into his life? WTF? I have a horrible feeling they try to play this
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I was going to say, sadly, no, but giving my feelings on this ep, it may be a good thing. ;)
I...don't agree that she didn't have the right to be upset when Lee nearly left her (though I also think the most telling part of their relationship is the point at which she leaves him and it's then that some of her true motives for marrying him in the first place become clear: that being, like most others...she doesn't see who he really is and thinks he is an "Adama").I can understand on an emotional level her being upset at the thought of her husband leaving her, it's a very natural response, but she put herself in that situation so I can't muster sympathy for her when the inevitable almost becomes reality. The funny part is she fears losing Apollo to Starbuck (I believe she even refers to them by their call signs in 'Rapture') , but when she realizes she's not married to Apollo, but Lee Adama, she bails! She expected him to disappoint her by leaving her for another woman, but it's his
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that was a long read and i agree with most of your thoughts:
Dee really shouldn’t have told him to stay behind and get drunk. that's a thing i still wonder about! why did she make him stay - especially when she knew that there was something between lee and kara?! she could have saved a lot of people a lot of trouble: lee, kara, anders, herself, me... if she hadn't talked him into staying (though i didn't mind to see me some semi-nekkid lee *heee*)
seriously, I think his parents marriage really frakked him up so say we all! and let's not forget that his mother wasn't of the caring type. everyone brags about starbuck's awful childhood (which it was - her mother was straight outta hell!) but we know that lee's mother had issues too. she was an alcoholic and probably blamed her children for her frakked up life. we don't know about any abuse but it's possible, isn't it?
Not only do I prefer the ambiguity of what Dee did or didn’t know, it paints Kara in a very bad light - intentionally hurting Dee just to piss Lee off more.kara bites
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why did she make him stay - especially when she knew that there was something between lee and kara?! she could have saved a lot of people a lot of trouble: lee, kara, anders, herself, me... if she hadn't talked him into staying
And it seemed to me that Lee really did want to go with her. Granted, it probably was because he feared what could happen if left alone with Kara, but he did attempt to put temptation out of his reach. I'm also perplexed that we are to believe Dee is well aware of Lee's feelings for Kara, but his state the next morning, both emotional and physical, didn't tip her off that he was unfaithful to her? ::is confused::
we don't know about any abuse but it's possible, isn't it?
I think Jamie has intimated that he believes Lee may have suffered physical abuse, but I think it's clear she was at least emotionally abusive.
compared to those scenes all the lee/dee moments make me cringe 'cause there's nothing between them. but that's just my point of view and i don't want to flame any lee/dee fans. There are Lee/
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I hope you don't mind a semi-random comment, but the only meta I've read so far is at SASA and I thought it would be interesting to see your non-shipper perspective. :)
One thing I will say is that I think you should watch it one more time, with the podcast - I think it would make you happy. :) Ron actually said that the reason for including this was that they thought we'd like to see how the editing process worked, so they gave us Everything they filmed. A few of the cuts he really likes, but a lot of them he just wanted to show us why they were taken out. So I think we can treat them just like deleted scenes - keep them if you like them and toss them if you don't
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I definitely intend to watch it again with the podcast. But that's more listening than watching. ;) I'm glad to see that Ron addresses some of the issues I have and even agrees with me on some points. I'm not sure I quite buy his logic for providing us with this cut though. Maybe so we'd stop bitching about his editing decisions? :)
I felt like they really could have had something if not for Kara, which I've always felt about Kara and Sam but not the reverse.
At the celebration on New Caprica, seeing how happy Lee was and that he had a real desire to go back to the ship with Dee, it was the first time I actually saw some chemistry between them and thought maybe, if things were different, it could work between them. Sam and Kara, even as their situations changed, I always could see a reason why they chose to remain connected.
the extended cut of unfinished business was interesting to watch and the commentary gives interesting insight into the editing of the show (Ron is joined by the show's editor).
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Sure, months later, in the ring, after he’s had time to process, he is able to see that Kara was “protecting herself at all costs” and “running away”, but in the moment, he couldn’t see beyond what it meant for him and it sent him on a downward spiral. The weight gain started to make some sense to me. In a way, this was worse than the suicide attempt for me because it’s clear he just stopped caring.
It sounds like the extended version does give Lee's downward turn a better explanation. And I'm glad for that, because you're right, the jokes about the weight just cheapen the idea. Unfortunately, the way season three was actually presented made the whole story line... basically non-existent. He was fat, there were jokes, then he wasn't. I understood what I was supposed to think about the weight gain, but it was never really supported on the show.
The second moment that really ( ... )
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Unfortunately, the way season three was actually presented made the whole story line... basically non-existent. He was fat, there were jokes, then he wasn't. I understood what I was supposed to think about the weight gain, but it was never really supported on the show.I completely agree with you. I always had an idea of what Ron was attempting to show and he certainly tried to explain in the podcasts what his intent was since we weren't seeing it on screen, but this extended cut did give me some concrete examples of why Lee became the man he was in early season 3. That he shared with Kara something he had never shared with another human being and then have her abandon him, something in him broke and he just said, "screw it". He created this life he had expected to lead and everyone else expected him to lead - military commander, married man, example for the fleet - but his ( ... )
Reply
Yup. I love Kara, she's definitely my favorite character, but she's mostly incapable of doing anything outside of her own... I won't say best interests, because that's not the right phrase, but, um... outside of what she wants at the moment, which may or may not be in her best interests.
That's true - I don't think of her as selfish so much as profoundly self-centered, much of the time. As in, honestly incapable of seeing things from outside her own perspective. In the podcast they actually acknowleded this - there's a scene where she actually talks to Tigh next to Sam's passed out body and they acknowledge all the guilt and remorse she feels for what she's done to Sam and is about to do to Lee, but that she's so damaged that she honestly has no idea of a better way to act.
Heh. I railed about this (very briefly, and f-locked because I'm a big wimp) once on my LJ. Tyrol at least has the excuse of ( ... )
Reply
That's a good way of putting it. Kara would lay down her life for just about anyone in the fleet and that is not something a selfish person would do. And I honestly don't think she lies around thinking of ways to hurt people. She just doesn't think about the potential ramifications of her actions.
But then how would we feel about it if Lee punched Dee in the face, no matter what she said to him? I don't know... it seems like Kara is the only woman it's "okay" to hit, and I wonder if that's partly the writers making her code as male.
I'm not sure Kara is the only female that it's OK to hit. The female Cylons have taken some punches as well. But is that because they female Cylons are also viewed as machines? I agree, if Lee hit Dee or Adama hit Roslin, there would be a very different reaction from the audience.
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I don't have a lot to say except I think your analysis of Lee sounds spot on given when I know from the originally aired cut.
And that I mostly agree with you about Dee. I...don't agree that she didn't have the right to be upset when Lee nearly left her (though I also think the most telling part of their relationship is the point at which she leaves him and it's then that some of her true motives for marrying him in the first place become clear: that being, like most others...she doesn't see who he really is and thinks he is an "Adama").
Basically, however she decided to commit to that relationship, she had the right to expect comittment in return. But I really, really lose respect for her when the writers try to play the "long-suffering I know you truly love someone else!" card. You say she says that she'll love him until Kara comes back into his life? WTF? I have a horrible feeling they try to play this ( ... )
Reply
I was going to say, sadly, no, but giving my feelings on this ep, it may be a good thing. ;)
I...don't agree that she didn't have the right to be upset when Lee nearly left her (though I also think the most telling part of their relationship is the point at which she leaves him and it's then that some of her true motives for marrying him in the first place become clear: that being, like most others...she doesn't see who he really is and thinks he is an "Adama").I can understand on an emotional level her being upset at the thought of her husband leaving her, it's a very natural response, but she put herself in that situation so I can't muster sympathy for her when the inevitable almost becomes reality. The funny part is she fears losing Apollo to Starbuck (I believe she even refers to them by their call signs in 'Rapture') , but when she realizes she's not married to Apollo, but Lee Adama, she bails! She expected him to disappoint her by leaving her for another woman, but it's his ( ... )
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Dee really shouldn’t have told him to stay behind and get drunk.
that's a thing i still wonder about! why did she make him stay - especially when she knew that there was something between lee and kara?! she could have saved a lot of people a lot of trouble: lee, kara, anders, herself, me... if she hadn't talked him into staying (though i didn't mind to see me some semi-nekkid lee *heee*)
seriously, I think his parents marriage really frakked him up
so say we all! and let's not forget that his mother wasn't of the caring type. everyone brags about starbuck's awful childhood (which it was - her mother was straight outta hell!) but we know that lee's mother had issues too. she was an alcoholic and probably blamed her children for her frakked up life. we don't know about any abuse but it's possible, isn't it?
Not only do I prefer the ambiguity of what Dee did or didn’t know, it paints Kara in a very bad light - intentionally hurting Dee just to piss Lee off more.kara bites ( ... )
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And it seemed to me that Lee really did want to go with her. Granted, it probably was because he feared what could happen if left alone with Kara, but he did attempt to put temptation out of his reach. I'm also perplexed that we are to believe Dee is well aware of Lee's feelings for Kara, but his state the next morning, both emotional and physical, didn't tip her off that he was unfaithful to her? ::is confused::
we don't know about any abuse but it's possible, isn't it?
I think Jamie has intimated that he believes Lee may have suffered physical abuse, but I think it's clear she was at least emotionally abusive.
compared to those scenes all the lee/dee moments make me cringe 'cause there's nothing between them. but that's just my point of view and i don't want to flame any lee/dee fans. There are Lee/ ( ... )
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*rofl*
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One thing I will say is that I think you should watch it one more time, with the podcast - I think it would make you happy. :) Ron actually said that the reason for including this was that they thought we'd like to see how the editing process worked, so they gave us Everything they filmed. A few of the cuts he really likes, but a lot of them he just wanted to show us why they were taken out. So I think we can treat them just like deleted scenes - keep them if you like them and toss them if you don't ( ... )
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I felt like they really could have had something if not for Kara, which I've always felt about Kara and Sam but not the reverse.
At the celebration on New Caprica, seeing how happy Lee was and that he had a real desire to go back to the ship with Dee, it was the first time I actually saw some chemistry between them and thought maybe, if things were different, it could work between them. Sam and Kara, even as their situations changed, I always could see a reason why they chose to remain connected.
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