I've spent so much time looking at and reediting this post, I am no longer sure it makes any sense. And, yes, the DVDs come out tomorrow, your point
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*sigh* I'm glad I'm not the only one who disliked the boxing episode. Is the extended cut the only one on the DVD's? (guess I'll find out later today)
Sure, months later, in the ring, after he’s had time to process, he is able to see that Kara was “protecting herself at all costs” and “running away”, but in the moment, he couldn’t see beyond what it meant for him and it sent him on a downward spiral. The weight gain started to make some sense to me. In a way, this was worse than the suicide attempt for me because it’s clear he just stopped caring.
It sounds like the extended version does give Lee's downward turn a better explanation. And I'm glad for that, because you're right, the jokes about the weight just cheapen the idea. Unfortunately, the way season three was actually presented made the whole story line... basically non-existent. He was fat, there were jokes, then he wasn't. I understood what I was supposed to think about the weight gain, but it was never really supported on the show.
The second moment that really affected me was Dee informing Lee that she would marry him, love him and cherish him until the Cylons returned or Kara walked back into his life.
Gah, I can't even begin to express how much I hate this. Dee's in love, but I really didn't think (don't want to believe) that she'd accept marriage without the good faith that Lee really loved her, too. I just... ugh, why add this in? It makes their marriage even more of a sham than it was before, and makes her holding on to it as long as she did an act of utter futility.
I do believe that Kara sees airing their dirty laundry in public as simply being honest. It’s also a way to try and draw Lee into a fight he doesn’t want. But it’s also demonstrates a lack of respect for others. It’s about what Kara needs, whether to feel better or worse about herself I am not sure, but it’s all about her.
Yup. I love Kara, she's definitely my favorite character, but she's mostly incapable of doing anything outside of her own... I won't say best interests, because that's not the right phrase, but, um... outside of what she wants at the moment, which may or may not be in her best interests.
It has also struck me (no pun intended) that if we are disturbed by Tyrol breaking Cally’s jaw, then going on to become her husband, how is Lee breaking Kara’s nose and embarking on an affair with her any different? Beating each other to a bloody pulp in not a way to resolve issues or reaffirm a relationship.
Heh. I railed about this (very briefly, and f-locked because I'm a big wimp) once on my LJ. Tyrol at least has the excuse of being asleep when he broke Cally's jaw. Lee's excuse--she hit first. But I've had issues with the Lee/Kara romantic relationship since season one, so...
I've come to realize that most of my issues with Lee connect to how he treats Kara when he's jealous/wanting a romantic relationship. I feel for Jamie Bamber--so much of his time playing Lee is defined by an unhealthy relationship. I like Lee and Kara both, but so far they haven't been very good for each other when they try to be more than friends.
Hm, I'm hoping my thoughts don't come off as being too anti-Lee, especially since I'm in your LJ. Sometimes I'm a bit too Kara > everyone else. I'm pleased to have stumbled across this entry; your analysis helped clarify some ideas I've had bouncing around my head for a while. unfortunately, it didn't give me any more desire to see the extended cut of UB... but I was already feeling that way before reading, heh.
I haven't checked my DVD's out thoroughly, but I think the extended cut is the only version we get. Which is why I still have the original on the DVR. ;)
Unfortunately, the way season three was actually presented made the whole story line... basically non-existent. He was fat, there were jokes, then he wasn't. I understood what I was supposed to think about the weight gain, but it was never really supported on the show.
I completely agree with you. I always had an idea of what Ron was attempting to show and he certainly tried to explain in the podcasts what his intent was since we weren't seeing it on screen, but this extended cut did give me some concrete examples of why Lee became the man he was in early season 3. That he shared with Kara something he had never shared with another human being and then have her abandon him, something in him broke and he just said, "screw it". He created this life he had expected to lead and everyone else expected him to lead - military commander, married man, example for the fleet - but his attitude and weight gain showed he had stopped caring.
Dee's in love, but I really didn't think (don't want to believe) that she'd accept marriage without the good faith that Lee really loved her, too. I just... ugh, why add this in? It makes their marriage even more of a sham than it was before, and makes her holding on to it as long as she did an act of utter futility.
I have issues with any woman who would marry a man that they love, but they know doesn't love them in return. It's degrading and it's not going to end well. And she doesn't even seem to be aware that she's settling. As much as I love Lee, he really is no prize!
And I agree, if she knew full well what she was getting herself into, as this added scene shows, and believed her husband was going to walk out on her someday then why does she fight to save her marriage? And how can she seem so hurt when what she thought was inevitable almost becomes reality?
Hm, I'm hoping my thoughts don't come off as being too anti-Lee, especially since I'm in your LJ. Sometimes I'm a bit too Kara > everyone else. I'm pleased to have stumbled across this entry; your analysis helped clarify some ideas I've had bouncing around my head for a while.
No, your thoughts don't come off as anti-Lee at all. And I welcome criticism of Lee because sometimes I think I'm a bit more positive than I should be about him. I really hadn't intended to rationalize his behavior as much as I did.
unfortunately, it didn't give me any more desire to see the extended cut of UB... but I was already feeling that way before reading, heh.
I dreaded watching this extended cut. I've never had to force myself to watch BSG before. And while I don't know if I'll ever watch it again, it did help me understand a few things better so it was worth the hour and fifteen minutes of torture. ;)
Don't worry, the original cut is still there! As I was saying below, Ron and the other writer vastly preferred the aired version.
Yup. I love Kara, she's definitely my favorite character, but she's mostly incapable of doing anything outside of her own... I won't say best interests, because that's not the right phrase, but, um... outside of what she wants at the moment, which may or may not be in her best interests.
That's true - I don't think of her as selfish so much as profoundly self-centered, much of the time. As in, honestly incapable of seeing things from outside her own perspective. In the podcast they actually acknowleded this - there's a scene where she actually talks to Tigh next to Sam's passed out body and they acknowledge all the guilt and remorse she feels for what she's done to Sam and is about to do to Lee, but that she's so damaged that she honestly has no idea of a better way to act.
Heh. I railed about this (very briefly, and f-locked because I'm a big wimp) once on my LJ. Tyrol at least has the excuse of being asleep when he broke Cally's jaw. Lee's excuse--she hit first. But I've had issues with the Lee/Kara romantic relationship since season one, so...
Actually he hit first this time. ;p The violence bothers me too, so much that I might have to meta it (tremble). I know we're supposed to think "gender-equality, yaay!" But then how would we feel about it if Lee punched Dee in the face, no matter what she said to him? I don't know... it seems like Kara is the only woman it's "okay" to hit, and I wonder if that's partly the writers making her code as male. But combined with her abusive background it's very disturbing. But I still find this episode so compelling! Help?
And this isn't a criticism of Lee, just the writing! Because it's obviously MEANT to be seen as okay by the writers - but when I unpack that it bothers me. Hmm.
I don't think of her as selfish so much as profoundly self-centered, much of the time.
That's a good way of putting it. Kara would lay down her life for just about anyone in the fleet and that is not something a selfish person would do. And I honestly don't think she lies around thinking of ways to hurt people. She just doesn't think about the potential ramifications of her actions.
But then how would we feel about it if Lee punched Dee in the face, no matter what she said to him? I don't know... it seems like Kara is the only woman it's "okay" to hit, and I wonder if that's partly the writers making her code as male.
I'm not sure Kara is the only female that it's OK to hit. The female Cylons have taken some punches as well. But is that because they female Cylons are also viewed as machines? I agree, if Lee hit Dee or Adama hit Roslin, there would be a very different reaction from the audience.
Sure, months later, in the ring, after he’s had time to process, he is able to see that Kara was “protecting herself at all costs” and “running away”, but in the moment, he couldn’t see beyond what it meant for him and it sent him on a downward spiral. The weight gain started to make some sense to me. In a way, this was worse than the suicide attempt for me because it’s clear he just stopped caring.
It sounds like the extended version does give Lee's downward turn a better explanation. And I'm glad for that, because you're right, the jokes about the weight just cheapen the idea. Unfortunately, the way season three was actually presented made the whole story line... basically non-existent. He was fat, there were jokes, then he wasn't. I understood what I was supposed to think about the weight gain, but it was never really supported on the show.
The second moment that really affected me was Dee informing Lee that she would marry him, love him and cherish him until the Cylons returned or Kara walked back into his life.
Gah, I can't even begin to express how much I hate this. Dee's in love, but I really didn't think (don't want to believe) that she'd accept marriage without the good faith that Lee really loved her, too. I just... ugh, why add this in? It makes their marriage even more of a sham than it was before, and makes her holding on to it as long as she did an act of utter futility.
I do believe that Kara sees airing their dirty laundry in public as simply being honest. It’s also a way to try and draw Lee into a fight he doesn’t want. But it’s also demonstrates a lack of respect for others. It’s about what Kara needs, whether to feel better or worse about herself I am not sure, but it’s all about her.
Yup. I love Kara, she's definitely my favorite character, but she's mostly incapable of doing anything outside of her own... I won't say best interests, because that's not the right phrase, but, um... outside of what she wants at the moment, which may or may not be in her best interests.
It has also struck me (no pun intended) that if we are disturbed by Tyrol breaking Cally’s jaw, then going on to become her husband, how is Lee breaking Kara’s nose and embarking on an affair with her any different? Beating each other to a bloody pulp in not a way to resolve issues or reaffirm a relationship.
Heh. I railed about this (very briefly, and f-locked because I'm a big wimp) once on my LJ. Tyrol at least has the excuse of being asleep when he broke Cally's jaw. Lee's excuse--she hit first. But I've had issues with the Lee/Kara romantic relationship since season one, so...
I've come to realize that most of my issues with Lee connect to how he treats Kara when he's jealous/wanting a romantic relationship. I feel for Jamie Bamber--so much of his time playing Lee is defined by an unhealthy relationship. I like Lee and Kara both, but so far they haven't been very good for each other when they try to be more than friends.
Hm, I'm hoping my thoughts don't come off as being too anti-Lee, especially since I'm in your LJ. Sometimes I'm a bit too Kara > everyone else. I'm pleased to have stumbled across this entry; your analysis helped clarify some ideas I've had bouncing around my head for a while.
unfortunately, it didn't give me any more desire to see the extended cut of UB... but I was already feeling that way before reading, heh.
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Unfortunately, the way season three was actually presented made the whole story line... basically non-existent. He was fat, there were jokes, then he wasn't. I understood what I was supposed to think about the weight gain, but it was never really supported on the show.
I completely agree with you. I always had an idea of what Ron was attempting to show and he certainly tried to explain in the podcasts what his intent was since we weren't seeing it on screen, but this extended cut did give me some concrete examples of why Lee became the man he was in early season 3. That he shared with Kara something he had never shared with another human being and then have her abandon him, something in him broke and he just said, "screw it". He created this life he had expected to lead and everyone else expected him to lead - military commander, married man, example for the fleet - but his attitude and weight gain showed he had stopped caring.
Dee's in love, but I really didn't think (don't want to believe) that she'd accept marriage without the good faith that Lee really loved her, too. I just... ugh, why add this in? It makes their marriage even more of a sham than it was before, and makes her holding on to it as long as she did an act of utter futility.
I have issues with any woman who would marry a man that they love, but they know doesn't love them in return. It's degrading and it's not going to end well. And she doesn't even seem to be aware that she's settling. As much as I love Lee, he really is no prize!
And I agree, if she knew full well what she was getting herself into, as this added scene shows, and believed her husband was going to walk out on her someday then why does she fight to save her marriage? And how can she seem so hurt when what she thought was inevitable almost becomes reality?
Hm, I'm hoping my thoughts don't come off as being too anti-Lee, especially since I'm in your LJ. Sometimes I'm a bit too Kara > everyone else. I'm pleased to have stumbled across this entry; your analysis helped clarify some ideas I've had bouncing around my head for a while.
No, your thoughts don't come off as anti-Lee at all. And I welcome criticism of Lee because sometimes I think I'm a bit more positive than I should be about him. I really hadn't intended to rationalize his behavior as much as I did.
unfortunately, it didn't give me any more desire to see the extended cut of UB... but I was already feeling that way before reading, heh.
I dreaded watching this extended cut. I've never had to force myself to watch BSG before. And while I don't know if I'll ever watch it again, it did help me understand a few things better so it was worth the hour and fifteen minutes of torture. ;)
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Yup. I love Kara, she's definitely my favorite character, but she's mostly incapable of doing anything outside of her own... I won't say best interests, because that's not the right phrase, but, um... outside of what she wants at the moment, which may or may not be in her best interests.
That's true - I don't think of her as selfish so much as profoundly self-centered, much of the time. As in, honestly incapable of seeing things from outside her own perspective. In the podcast they actually acknowleded this - there's a scene where she actually talks to Tigh next to Sam's passed out body and they acknowledge all the guilt and remorse she feels for what she's done to Sam and is about to do to Lee, but that she's so damaged that she honestly has no idea of a better way to act.
Heh. I railed about this (very briefly, and f-locked because I'm a big wimp) once on my LJ. Tyrol at least has the excuse of being asleep when he broke Cally's jaw. Lee's excuse--she hit first. But I've had issues with the Lee/Kara romantic relationship since season one, so...
Actually he hit first this time. ;p The violence bothers me too, so much that I might have to meta it (tremble). I know we're supposed to think "gender-equality, yaay!" But then how would we feel about it if Lee punched Dee in the face, no matter what she said to him? I don't know... it seems like Kara is the only woman it's "okay" to hit, and I wonder if that's partly the writers making her code as male. But combined with her abusive background it's very disturbing. But I still find this episode so compelling! Help?
And this isn't a criticism of Lee, just the writing! Because it's obviously MEANT to be seen as okay by the writers - but when I unpack that it bothers me. Hmm.
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That's a good way of putting it. Kara would lay down her life for just about anyone in the fleet and that is not something a selfish person would do. And I honestly don't think she lies around thinking of ways to hurt people. She just doesn't think about the potential ramifications of her actions.
But then how would we feel about it if Lee punched Dee in the face, no matter what she said to him? I don't know... it seems like Kara is the only woman it's "okay" to hit, and I wonder if that's partly the writers making her code as male.
I'm not sure Kara is the only female that it's OK to hit. The female Cylons have taken some punches as well. But is that because they female Cylons are also viewed as machines? I agree, if Lee hit Dee or Adama hit Roslin, there would be a very different reaction from the audience.
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