Symptom of Rape Culture?

[akashathekitty]

I'd really like as many as possible to comment on this, if you have the time/inclinations/a lot of feelings, okay?

It's about this story of mine. It's also available here if you aren't a member of H&V. In the Darkness, All Cats are Grey.

I just received a PM about that fic. Rather than summarize it, I will copy it in its entirety, leaving out who

Comments

[delwynmarch]

I'm afraid I'll be the lone voice of dissent here :P

I've read the first half of the fic, and what I notice is that by the end of it, Hermione still thinks that the guy is Ron. A different Ron, yes, and she even remarks at some point that it would be exciting to fantasize about him not being Ron at all, but the point remains that by the time she's given him a blow job, been stripped naked, and is suggesting penis-in-vagina, she still thinks the guy is Ron. Or at least, that's the way it reads to me. At no point did I get the impression that she seriously, honestly considered that it might actually not be Ron.

Which in turn means that she's only consenting to sex with Ron. At no point do I see her consenting to sex with anyone else. Thus she never consents to sex with Draco, thus it's non-con. And rape on Draco's part, since he knows full well what's going on

[eevilalice]

You beat me to it! :)

[akashathekitty]

Being the lone voice doesn't mean you're wrong, so there's that.

I've read the first half of the fic, and what I notice is that by the end of it, Hermione still thinks that the guy is Ron. A different Ron, yes, and she even remarks at some point that it would be exciting to fantasize about him not being Ron at all, but the point remains that by the time she's given him a blow job, been stripped naked, and is suggesting penis-in-vagina, she still thinks the guy is Ron. Or at least, that's the way it reads to me. At no point did I get the impression that she seriously, honestly considered that it might actually not be Ron.

And that's a very valid point to make. It's extremely possible that the subtleness is too subtle as I keep having her rationalize so she can go on. Like, I don't even recall (sorry, epic headache today so even reading this is causing me pain and rereading will have to wait) if I make her make note of the different size, shape and feel of the penis as she starts oral, and those differences should be there, ya know?

[delwynmarch]

I sincerely think this might indeed be a case of being too subtle. I know how hard it can be to walk the line between hinting strongly at things and shouting them at the reader. But in this case... Yeah, I don't see that point where Hermione should go "Wait a minute, is this Ron? Hey, maybe not..." Every time we see her wondering what's going on, she immediately backtracks into "Gee, Ron sure is weird and different tonight!" Ron, always Ron.

Like, I don't even recall (sorry, epic headache today so even reading this is causing me pain and rereading will have to wait) if I make her make note of the different size, shape and feel of the penis as she starts oral, and those differences should be there, ya know? Just to pick an example. And all that stuff can definitely be put on me, as the author. But there's other stuff like, before the PIV he says "Don't call me Ron!!" and if that's not supposed to make someone as clever as Hermione stop and think, I don't know what is.See, it's interesting that you should mention these two particular

[eevilalice]

Thanks for opening up this discussion. Let's see if I can organize some of my thoughts.

Of the work you've written that I've read, this story is actually my least favorite, primarily due to reasons along the lines of those mentioned in the PM you quoted. At the time, I don't think I could articulate the issue, but I think it may have been that I do find the story to be non-con instead of dub-con (as others have noted, this can be a fine line in fanfic, and each reader has her understanding of the terms).

I believe you're overstating Hermione's awareness or suspicions regarding who she's with. I just reread the story, and it seems to me that, though she does note that assumed-Ron (Draco) is being different in several places, and even thinks to herself it would be hot to pretend it's a stranger, she still assumes it's Ron. She only thinks that it's easy to imagine that it's someone else. She's shocked when she discovers it wasn't actually Ron when she speaks with him later. You also make every effort to show that, yeah, Draco

[akashathekitty]

I believe you're overstating Hermione's awareness or suspicions regarding who she's with.

I may very well be. I read a lot into the details myself. I recall when I wrote it, I was actually concerned about whether it was too subtle but my beta (at the time) didn't want me to add more. No, I'm not saying that anything is my beta's fault, but I remember that so clearly that it's very possible my goggles are different than any of my readers' goggles. It's just a bit odd to me that in almost three years nobody ever made the observation that it was more non- than dub-con if more than a handful of people feels that way.

The story didn't "trigger" me or anything, and I'd never ask you to change it (or even the warning if the summary does an adequate job outlining the scenario).

I'm still iffy about calling it straight-up non-con (as that has different connotations with more far-reaching consequences to me) but I'd be willing to make an extra note or addition to the summary that more clearly states the scenario if it's lacking.

As far as

[eevilalice]

I think Draco's behavior feels condoned to me because of the way in which it's repeatedly made clear how concerned he is about forcing himself on her physically, about hurting her, even when it comes to his little internal comments regarding her pleasure and how Ron seemed less concerned with that given Hermione's reactions and comments. In short, you don't make Draco much of an asshole when it comes to his interaction with Hermione except for the issue of his not caring that she doesn't know it's him, and that's made to feel like such a minor thing in comparison. I think that may have been what bothered me most. It's like, "Aw, Draco's so considerate, he's always secretly wanted Hermione, and he's giving her more pleasure than Ron, her boyfriend."

I don't agree that everyone perpetuates rape culture, though I would say that most cultures are rape cultures (if that makes sense)?

[akashathekitty]

In short, you don't make Draco much of an asshole when it comes to his interaction with Hermione except for the issue of his not caring that she doesn't know it's him, and that's made to feel like such a minor thing in comparison. I think that may have been what bothered me most. It's like, "Aw, Draco's so considerate, he's always secretly wanted Hermione, and he's giving her more pleasure than Ron, her boyfriend."

That's valuable information. I don't condone Draco's behaviour or even his ideas about Ron's skills, but he is an unreliable narrator and I may have assumed too much from the reader in the "of course he's an asshole, duh! He's Draco Malfoy!" respect. The fact that he's concerned with hurting her physically is actually rather ironic when coupled with how he easily convinces himself that it's all right to trick her into having sex with him.

I don't agree that everyone perpetuates rape cultureOkay, I'll grant that not every individual does, but far too many people think it's perfectly fine to be concerned with how women

[darkrosefanfics]

It's very interesting that in you mind, Hermione realized that it probably wasn't Ron. I read this story a while ago, and I don't want to go back to re-read it now because I want to keep my first impressions in mind, but from what I remember, that really didn't come across that clearly. In fact, I remember not enjoying the story as much as your other works, because it really seemed odd to me that Hermione would just not realize that the guy she was with was not her boyfriend. I mean, just the voice should have been a clue! There's not way I could talk to somebody in the dark thinking it's my boyfriend, and when hearing his voice, not notice that it's not him. And then, there's everything else you already said... So it did make me raise eyebrows and wonder how she could be that blind - although I guess blind is exactly the wrong term to use here. But nowhere in the text did I get the idea that she might in fact know that it was not him, and still pretend and go along with it. It just looked like a plothole to me, because it didn't seem

[eevilalice]

As a reader, I don't feel I'm particularly "starry-eyed" when it comes to Draco; in fact, I'm often puzzled by fics in which he's written IC (which, to me, means he's a prat, at best) and is nasty as hell to Hermione or whoever, and readers still think they should be together, with Draco as is (I've got no problem with Draco being redeemed), with his bigotry being charming somehow.

I didn't personally like Draco in this story (I didn't much like Hermione, either), but I'm not even sure it's "an extra level of caution" needed to see "what's really going on." I don't think that intent is really in the story. There's too many things working against it, too many things saying a fun time was had by all, and everything's okay.

[akashathekitty]

There's too many things working against it, too many things saying a fun time was had by all, and everything's okay.

You're saying that like skeevy fun times can't realistically be had by all and still be skeevy. The most unrealistic thing in this story is the basic premise of them going at it in the darkness with her massive self-deluding (or if going by some people's interpretations rather than authorial intent, ignorance), but it's not unrealistic that something wrong and bad can happen for all the wrong and bad reasons, yet the people in the situation will still get off on it and have dysfunctional fun times. It's not the author's responsibility to make sure that the characters have the "right" responses to send the "right" message.

[eevilalice]

You've made comments to the effect that you've been surprised by people's readings of the situation and of Draco, and that's what I'm speaking to. I'm pointing out that there are things working against certain interpretations of the characters and situations. I'm not saying you have some responsibility to be moral and give a message.

[margotlefaye]

Given that I was the beta who said that there was legal precedence for considering what happened rape when the story was still in draft form, you might expect me to side with the flamer

[akashathekitty]

Given that I was the beta who said that there was legal precedence for considering what happened rape when the story was still in draft form, you might expect me to side with the flamer.

I actually didn't know what side you were going to come down on, but I'm glad you didn't come down on their side, as I would have liked to hear that before, then.

Also, for anyone who should happen to read this, Margot isn't the beta who discouraged me putting in more hints, either. That beta was a personal off-fandom friend of mine who hasn't betaed any of my stuff in a while.

Let me back up: I think deceiving a woman into believing she's sleeping with person X when she is actually sleeping with person Y is rape.

Agreed.

As far as fic goes, I think the choice to label a fic dub-con rather than non-con is also a technicality.

Agreed again. To me, it's a flavour thing. Non-con upsets me, dub-con titillates me. As fiction. Not in RL.

I recall being left with the impression that Hermione realized, after the fact, that there had been clues she had

[margotlefaye]

Well, now, I wouldn't go so far as to say that art should not be teaching moral lessons: quite the opposite, actually. One of the functions of art is to hold up a mirror to the real world, and sometimes, that's a funhouse mirror. What I mean is, that the image in the art exaggerates some aspect of what you're seeing in the real world, that is, distorting it a bit, twisting it a bit out of reality. But in the end, that distortion allows you to see the real world more clearly, rather than less so. So, you get things like "La Cage Aux Folles" which gives you a very exaggerated gay couple as a way of pleading for tolerance. The original Star Trek's multi-racial, multi-cultural crew was a real eye opener for American audiences in the mid-1960's, at the height of the America Civil Rights movement, and this is why Martin Luther King encouraged Nichelle Nichols (Uhuru) to stay in her minor role on the show when she was considering leaving

[akashathekitty]

Well, now, I wouldn't go so far as to say that art should not be teaching moral lessons: quite the opposite, actually.

My apologies, I actually meant it more in the sense that it shouldn't be expected to or required teach moral lessons, like you said. Of course, it can.

One of the functions of art is to hold up a mirror to the real world, and sometimes, that's a funhouse mirror. What I mean is, that the image in the art exaggerates some aspect of what you're seeing in the real world, that is, distorting it a bit, twisting it a bit out of reality. But in the end, that distortion allows you to see the real world more clearly, rather than less so.And as much as I HATE the concept of any of my fics supposedly being all about teaching the readers a lesson, when I look at e.g. COCK there's definitely a lot of commentary on things like sexuality / sexual equality / feminism etc. I'm trying to use the opposing views to keep a status quo so people don't attribute views to me than I actually have. Editing Hermione in that one so she doesn't

[717lm]

I think you've answered the angry reviewer brilliantly. The degree of difference between dub-con and non-con matters little in the realm of fanfic. Those who don't like it don't have to clicky and read.

I rather like margotlefaye's response here - she has captured the issues well. I don't read fiction in the hope of reflecting reality - I read it to escape reality - otherwise I wouldn't be reading about wizards, witches and hippogriffs! "Art should be dangerous" amen. absolutely.

As to character development and motivation: You are one of the fiction writers who develops each character with agonizing precision and care - even when some of us are looking for a quick fix ;)

Love the pairing, love your writing and especially dig your character development.

[akashathekitty]

I think you've answered the angry reviewer brilliantly.

That's good to hear. I had a very bad headache that day so, looking back, I could probably have worded a few things differently, but, meh. Can't we always?

I rather like margotlefaye's response here - she has captured the issues well.

Margot is a clever lady. :) But yes, I also think she has some very good points. If we stay morally sound (within the morals of the day, of course, since morals aren't objective) it'll soon get dull.

As to character development and motivation: You are one of the fiction writers who develops each character with agonizing precision and care - even when some of us are looking for a quick fix ;)

Thank you! :) I try to. I dislike nothing more than cookie cutter fiction where it can pretty much be Insert Your Own Character Of Choice Here. Pffft, screw that! I want to read about DRACO and HERMIONE, not Sex God #732 and Blushing Virgin #1947 -_-