Symptom of Rape Culture?
I'd really like as many as possible to comment on this, if you have the time/inclinations/a lot of feelings, okay?
It's about this story of mine. It's also available here if you aren't a member of H&V. In the Darkness, All Cats are Grey.
I just received a PM about that fic. Rather than summarize it, I will copy it in its entirety, leaving out who ( Read more... )
It's about this story of mine. It's also available here if you aren't a member of H&V. In the Darkness, All Cats are Grey.
I just received a PM about that fic. Rather than summarize it, I will copy it in its entirety, leaving out who ( Read more... )
I've read the first half of the fic, and what I notice is that by the end of it, Hermione still thinks that the guy is Ron. A different Ron, yes, and she even remarks at some point that it would be exciting to fantasize about him not being Ron at all, but the point remains that by the time she's given him a blow job, been stripped naked, and is suggesting penis-in-vagina, she still thinks the guy is Ron. Or at least, that's the way it reads to me. At no point did I get the impression that she seriously, honestly considered that it might actually not be Ron.
And that's a very valid point to make. It's extremely possible that the subtleness is too subtle as I keep having her rationalize so she can go on. Like, I don't even recall (sorry, epic headache today so even reading this is causing me pain and rereading will have to wait) if I make her make note of the different size, shape and feel of the penis as she starts oral, and those differences should be there, ya know? Just to pick an example. And all that stuff can definitely be put on me, as the author. But there's other stuff like, before the PIV he says "Don't call me Ron!!" and if that's not supposed to make someone as clever as Hermione stop and think, I don't know what is. And, as some comments noted, her reaction afterwards (she figures stuff out and hardly even feels surprised and certainly not remorseful) also plays into how the reader perceives what they just read.
I also feel that there are different definitions of dub-con and non-con going around, and some people not liking the term dub-con at all because it somehow minimizes what's going on etc. I like having that discussion, because it makes me more aware of where I should draw the lines.
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Like, I don't even recall (sorry, epic headache today so even reading this is causing me pain and rereading will have to wait) if I make her make note of the different size, shape and feel of the penis as she starts oral, and those differences should be there, ya know? Just to pick an example. And all that stuff can definitely be put on me, as the author. But there's other stuff like, before the PIV he says "Don't call me Ron!!" and if that's not supposed to make someone as clever as Hermione stop and think, I don't know what is.
See, it's interesting that you should mention these two particular events because as it happens, both of them are written strictly in Draco's POV. Yes, Hermione does stop and think when Draco asks her not to call him Ron, but we don't know what she thinks. And her eventual answer ("What do you want to be called?"), combined with her thoughts when the POV shifts back to her which all indicate that she still thinks the guy is Ron, gives as the only logical conclusion that even if she did consider at one point - offscreen - that the guy may not be Ron, she apparently rejected that possibility by the time we get back to her.
And, as some comments noted, her reaction afterwards (she figures stuff out and hardly even feels surprised and certainly not remorseful) also plays into how the reader perceives what they just read.
Which is why I didn't read the second part ;) To me, her reaction after the facts is irrelevant to whether or not what happened was rape or not. Just like consensual sex doesn't become rape simply because one partner didn't enjoy it or has regrets about consenting, so doesn't rape become consensual sex because the victim doesn't mind it. It may be the best and fluffiest sex ever, and the victim and rapist may live together in eternal felicity afterwards, but if there wasn't consent, then it's rape.
I also feel that there are different definitions of dub-con and non-con going around, and some people not liking the term dub-con at all because it somehow minimizes what's going on etc.
Indeed. Even in the case of non-con, it's pretty clear that not everyone always agrees on what qualifies or not. It's even worse in the case of dub-con. Personally, I like the concept of dub-con because it allows for all those cases where it's clearly not full-on non-con to still be described as iffy and to still be warned as potentially triggery. It introduces a much-needed scale of gray in what would otherwise be an unmanageable black-and-white contrast.
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By the way: your favourite childhood fairytales can take on a decidedly bitter taste when you start looking at them in such a way :P
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Denial is the way to happiness :P
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And this may also be why nobody ever challenged the view before.
... and it's very fluffy too ...
Heeh! I don't think anybody called it fluffy before. :D
By the way: your favourite childhood fairytales can take on a decidedly bitter taste when you start looking at them in such a way :P
Haha, I remember especially liking that fairy tale with the prince who was moonlighting as a giant worm monster or something who killed all the princesses that married him, and then they eventually ran out of princesses. I especially remember this one scene where the heroine sees this chamber filled with princess body parts and sees him take a ring from a finger that he later gives to her.
I still find it to be one of the better ones, although I don't remember its name or origin.
Clearly, I'm damaged.
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That fairy tale you describe, on the other hand, doesn't sound fluffy at all to me :D D:
Meh. I'm damaged and my chat-partner-in-crime is damaged as well, so no stones are gonna get thrown your way from my general direction :P
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...as I ready myself to post prompts at hp_kinkfest, lol.
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There should probably have been some more disclosure in there about how, if she acknowledges that this isn't Ron, she won't feel like she can go on, so adamantly sticking to the Ron-Ron-Ron schtick is necessary for her own peace of mind. And that, right there, is useful knowledge for me as an author who likes to write skeevy stuff. Because there comes a time when the stuff out-skeeves itself to some of the readers, because they aren't inside my head.
I sincerely think this might indeed be a case of being too subtle. I know how hard it can be to walk the line between hinting strongly at things and shouting them at the reader. But in this case... Yeah, I don't see that point where Hermione should go "Wait a minute, is this Ron? Hey, maybe not..." Every time we see her wondering what's going on, she immediately backtracks into "Gee, Ron sure is weird and different tonight!" Ron, always Ron.
Well, like I've said in other comments, I actually think that dub-con is also rape, whether that's the actual legal picture or not. For me, it's just a way to label something that isn't out-and-out the rapee fighting and/or saying no etc, but where they e.g. do consent but under false pretenses. For you, that false consent clearly still falls under non-con, same for eevilalice, and G doesn't seem to like the dub-con label much at all. It's something worth considering in general when posting fic that is morally skeevy in the future, at the very least.
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Aha, I see! Well, it didn't work for me because I didn't see that time where she goes, even if unconsciously, "This isn't Ron, but I want it to be Ron, so lalala, it's Ron!" To me, it always read as "Ron sure is weird tonight, but hey, I don't mind his weirdness so whatever," which is not the same thing at all. You'll notice that I've emphasized that this is the way *I* saw it, because it's very possible that many other readers easily caught on to what you were trying to achieve.
And that, right there, is useful knowledge for me as an author who likes to write skeevy stuff. Because there comes a time when the stuff out-skeeves itself to some of the readers, because they aren't inside my head.
Tell me about that :D ! I was greatly helped in this matter by a special beta, back when I started writing really skeevy stuff, who had a tendency to trip over each and every narrative hole I left in the text. Her brain worked so differently from mine that I could never cut any corner without her flatly going "That doesn't work for me" or downright misunderstanding my intent.
Well, like I've said in other comments, I actually think that dub-con is also rape, whether that's the actual legal picture or not.
I actually tend to think that way as well, which is why I like the concept of dub-con in fic: because it allows us to say "This is skeevy stuff, even if it's not legally rape." It doesn't keep us tied down to the various legal definitions of rape. It allows us to say, "Okay, sure, in RL he wouldn't go to jail for what he did, but it's still morally wrong."
For me, it's just a way to label something that isn't out-and-out the rapee fighting and/or saying no etc, but where they e.g. do consent but under false pretenses. For you, that false consent clearly still falls under non-con,
Eeeeh, not necessarily ;) Whether I'd label it dub-con or non-con depends on many things, really.
To me, non-con is the straightforward one: does everybody involved clearly consent to the sexual acts taking place, with these specific partners? If the answer is a clear "No!", then it's non-con. That's why I personally would label your fic non-con, since I don't see Hermione consenting to any kind of sex with Draco at any point. No consent. Now, if at some point I clearly saw her going "Okay, this isn't Ron, but I'll keep pretending it is and I want to go on with this," then I'd probably see it as dub-con. Basically, I have the white consent, the black non-con, and everything else in-between is some degree of dub-con.
It's something worth considering in general when posting fic that is morally skeevy in the future, at the very least.
I write so much skeevy stuff that I had to put an A/N on a fully consensual rape roleplay fic, reassuring my readers that everything was consensual and was exactly how the POV character was presenting it :P And even like that, I still had one reader checking with me that "he was pretending, right?" :D
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And there could be many who, like eevilalice felt off about it but didn't speak out. It's really impossible to tell. The only thing I know is that it's popular, but hawtness excuses a lot, is what I've learned.
But with this in mind, I may be better equipped in the future to make sure I put in that one crucial line that makes all the difference, you know? Not to mention that I already think I improved my writing skillz a ton over the last three years.
Tell me about that :D ! I was greatly helped in this matter by a special beta, back when I started writing really skeevy stuff, who had a tendency to trip over each and every narrative hole I left in the text. Her brain worked so differently from mine that I could never cut any corner without her flatly going "That doesn't work for me" or downright misunderstanding my intent.
Haha, been there, done that. I've had quite the discussions with some of my betas at times. I tend to prefer someone who knows where I'm coming from, though, because I remember this one time in the beginning of Bracelet I kept having a beta complain about how MEAN Draco was and be all D: - no matter how often I tried to tell her that this was by design. Eventually I got sick of it and found someone else.
I write so much skeevy stuff that I had to put an A/N on a fully consensual rape roleplay fic, reassuring my readers that everything was consensual and was exactly how the POV character was presenting it :P And even like that, I still had one reader checking with me that "he was pretending, right?" :D
Hahaha, yeah, there'll always be someone. And not even only about skeeviness. On my current WIP I put in an extra A/N that the characters' views aren't reflecting my views, because they're discussing stuff like sexual equality and even abortion etc at times and they're not my damn mouthpieces, they simply clash. A lot. I can't make them discuss house-elves in every damn fic. -_-
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