SPN 9x1

[pocochina]

Sam’s dreamscape

We rarely seen Dean from Sam’s POV - the only time I can think of is the hallucination in Levee, where head!Dean was basically saying what actual Dean was saying. Sam thinks of Dean as his survival instinct, yes, but also, Sam’s subconscious pictures Dean whaling on him. (Sam also doesn’t see himself as being in control of his

Comments

[ash48]

Interesting review. My initial reading is that Zeke was channeling Dean inside Sam's head because it was just too damn good. I think he used Dean to do the persuading and then swapped over. One main reason for this is if he is so good at mimicing others then he would have done a better job of being more like Sam at the end. Ok...maybe not. I know that was done so we could see that clearly wasn't Sam. I suppose I just want to believe it was Dean saying those things to Sam, not Ezekiel. Also, surely Death would have recognised him has not!Dean and warned Sam? Maybe

[pocochina]

I suppose I just want to believe it was Dean saying those things to Sam, not Ezekiel. Also, surely Death would have recognised him has not!Dean and warned Sam? Maybe?

I think there was some kind of angelic mind-meld going on, for sure. But...idk, in Dean's shoes, would you drop two giant hints about the one thing you know the person you're negotiating with does not want? Let me in; you can't shut me out. I think some of the emotion coming through was Dean, but I don't think he was the one steering the general thrust of that conversation.

I don't mind the reading that Dean is being used (again, not something I fully considered) - only, I don't like that Dean is being used. *pouts* I would rather he not have been played, but if he has been I suppose it makes for another tangle in the story line.With SPN I have a pretty strong presumption that the supes are playing any humans they come across until I have really good reason to believe otherwise. And I think Dean definitely knew that he needed Ezekiel much more than Ezekiel needed him

[ash48]

but I don't think he was the one steering the general thrust of that conversation.

I would actually love to know what Carver was thinking when he wrote that (or when it was being directed). I have heard good arguments on both sides and I think the only way we will know is if a) it becomes clear in future episodes, or b) TPTB tell us. They often do this to us though - leave the interpretation open. At the end of the day all that mattered was Sam saying yes.

though I don't know if all the potential problems have sunk in for him yet.

They haven't. A bit like the viewer I think. Half of what has been discussed post episode didn't even cross my mind on the first viewing. Including that Ezekiel maybe ...well, all sort of things!

I don't have even the slightest quarrel with the storytelling or acting or whatever. It's the kind of visceral reaction that comes from great characterization.I yeah. I get that. That's was discussing is all about. ;) It our own way of rationalising why a character might do something and deciding

[pocochina]

I would actually love to know what Carver was thinking when he wrote that (or when it was being directed). I have heard good arguments on both sides and I think the only way we will know is if a) it becomes clear in future episodes, or b) TPTB tell us. They often do this to us though - leave the interpretation open.

I would not be surprised if the blurring between Dean and Ezekiel in that moment was purposeful on the part of the narrative, to show us that Ezekiel is that capable of taking on certain characteristics of whatever vessel he's using if he thinks it's necessary or advantageous. If there's more to his possession abilities than just an on/off switch, then there's the question of how much of Sam himself Ezekiel can imitate or appropriate, and that makes things even more interesting.

Half of what has been discussed post episode didn't even cross my mind on the first viewing. Including that Ezekiel maybe ...well, all sort of things!

Yes! This episode was packed with enough stuff to go in any number of wild directions.

[percysowner]

Well I can honestly say that I was opposed to Dean taking charge and shoving Sam's soul back in him, so my anger goes back that far. I would have been fine with Dean rescuing Sam and asking Cas to take his soul to heaven because leaving your brother to be tortured for all eternity when you can stop it is not good. I'm less on the saving a life is good train. Saving life is good, but there are limits and the person dying should have the final say as to what means they want used to keep them alive. If Dean had told Sam what he wanted to do and allowed Sam the chance to decide on his own if life was worth this price, I'd be good. Part of my issue is that Dean has never been possessed. Sam has been possessed twice, once with Meg and the with Lucifer. So I think he has the right to say, no not that way. Basically Sam will no longer have control of his body. Ezekiel can go kill people, or do whatever using Sam's body and Sam will never know it happened. Sam's body has already been used to murder without his consent by Meg and Lucifer.

[pocochina]

Yeah, it's definitely a major moral problem, but lbr, the bar is pretty low with Dean. To me, there's a big difference between "well, this person is unconscious and I can't know for sure, so I'll err on the side of saving their life," as Dean did in AHBL and in this episode, and "this person is locked up and strapped down screaming NO NO NO, DO NOT ENDANGER MY LIFE but I will go ahead and do the thing anyway." One is...really not good, given everything Dean knows about Sam, but the other is way worse.

Part of my issue is that Dean has never been possessed. Sam has been possessed twice, once with Meg and the with Lucifer. So I think he has the right to say, no not that way.

That's a really important point, and I do agree.

I do think that he was ready to die and at peace with that decision. And Dean knew he was because he heard him asking Death to promise him that he could not be brought back.

To be fair - I can't check the transcript yet, but IIRC - Sam's last line there was basically saying "I want my death to be final because

[ash48]

he knew Sam was okay with it and yet he's yanking him back into a world and turning his body over to who knows what.

Jumping in because I think it's a really (really!) big distinction between Sam making "peace" with his own impression of Dean (the fighting Dean that we saw) and him deciding to die because he doesn't want to hurt anyone else. Dean only saw Sam say he wants to die forever so he doesn't hurt anyone else. From Dean's pov this is wrong - this isn't Sam dying for a "good" reason. This is Sam dying thinking he's a total screw up (which, ok - it could be argued that he is, but not from Dean's pov).

I know this is a huge leap but one way I have been interpreting is- it's like seeing someone who wants to kill themselves and doing everything within their power to stop it because they think that decision isn't being made with a clear view. That's essentially my reading on how Dean has viewed Sam wanting to die. Sam didn't really want to die (in fact he even says as much after Dean comes to him). I think if Sam really

[pocochina]

it's like seeing someone who wants to kill themselves and doing everything within their power to stop it because they think that decision isn't being made with a clear view

Yes, exactly. I mean, Dean knew what he was doing was majorly fucked up - if he didn't, he wouldn't have tap-danced around getting the technical "yes," he would've laid it out for Sam - and I'm not about to defend this pattern of behavior. But if Sam didn't really, really want to live, he wouldn't have gone with Dean no questions asked based on such mature and cogent arguments as "SAM THERE'S A THING PLEASE DO THE THING!!!"

Again, the fact that Dean was obscuring THE THING at all means that he knows he was playing fast and loose. And his agreement not to tell Sam right away - and acto [Spoiler (click to open)]is going to be going on for at least a few more episodes - is a lot less questionable. Dean has the time now to present a case so Sam can make his own informed decision, or he will very shortly, and he has chosen not to, which is Very Bad

[ellie_234]

It is simple in the scheme of the show . Dean has the autonomy to do and make decisions for Sam and in the name of 'he is seriously fucked up' 'he cant live without Sam' and he is the brother that defined himself by family which in itself has become a monster esp where the fandom is concerned

[pocochina]

It is simple in the scheme of the show . Dean has the autonomy to do and make decisions for Sam and in the name of 'he is seriously fucked up' 'he cant live without Sam' and he is the brother that defined himself by family which in itself has become a monster esp where the fandom is concerned.

See yes okay this is the dumb logic of some of fandom but I don't think it's the show. One could maybe make the case that this issue warped the narrative of the first act of the series, through S5, but I think the show has been very clear on the different standards to which Sam and Dean hold themselves from S6 on out. And I think this episode was painful to watch in the best possible way because it was so brutally direct about DEAN MAKES DECISIONS FOR SAM AND THIS IS NOT OKAY. I'm sure corners of fandom are weeping bitter tears and clinging to their denial, but lmao cry harder. I enjoy the show even more with this stuff out in the open.

[ellie_234]

Maybe and certainly everybody can see the show and how it is presented in their way. No it was not okay for Dean to do it , is the show screaming that ?not really because it is wrapped up in desperate Dean and that is the bulk of the reaction and acceptance of what Dean did . What the writers intend and how the audience reacts to it can be two different things.

Sam is being attacked for not wanting to stay and fight to be with Dean , the talks in his mind with Bobby and Death are being seen as arrogance not that of a deeply broken wounded soul. That Dean can save Sam at any cost and even if there are those disturbed by what Dean did , how long do you think those feelings towards Dean will last ?. I have not seen anything that has ever changed my mind about the two brothers and where they stand within the relationship and such two diffferent scenarios in the space of a season where Sam is seen as not doing anything and Dean is seen doing everything will not change the view of many in my IMO.

[pocochina]

I agree with the principle that authorial intent is a lot less important than what's on the screen, but some fan take-aways are stupid and have little to do with what was on the screen, regardless of authorial intent. There are two aspects of the episode as a finished product that stand out as supporting my read on the episode

[pocochina]

As sketch as he is overall, I actually don't think Ezekiel was lying at the end when he told Dean that if Sam found out, Sam could eject him any time.

If Sam ever catches on, it could be bye-bye Ezekiel time.

Which is so creepy and awesome because unless and until something major changes, he can never catch on. Ezekiel will not allow him to catch on. Sam can be made to forget any clues he pics up, suspicions he has, whatever. Nightmare fuel to the max. I LOVE IT.

[pocochina]

!!!!! LOVE IT.

[pocochina]

part of me still wants to catch up/watch this season. i had a dream of the episode, though lmao

HOW DO I SELL YOU?