SPN 9x1

[pocochina]

Sam’s dreamscape

We rarely seen Dean from Sam’s POV - the only time I can think of is the hallucination in Levee, where head!Dean was basically saying what actual Dean was saying. Sam thinks of Dean as his survival instinct, yes, but also, Sam’s subconscious pictures Dean whaling on him. (Sam also doesn’t see himself as being in control of his

Comments

[percysowner]

Well I can honestly say that I was opposed to Dean taking charge and shoving Sam's soul back in him, so my anger goes back that far. I would have been fine with Dean rescuing Sam and asking Cas to take his soul to heaven because leaving your brother to be tortured for all eternity when you can stop it is not good. I'm less on the saving a life is good train. Saving life is good, but there are limits and the person dying should have the final say as to what means they want used to keep them alive. If Dean had told Sam what he wanted to do and allowed Sam the chance to decide on his own if life was worth this price, I'd be good. Part of my issue is that Dean has never been possessed. Sam has been possessed twice, once with Meg and the with Lucifer. So I think he has the right to say, no not that way. Basically Sam will no longer have control of his body. Ezekiel can go kill people, or do whatever using Sam's body and Sam will never know it happened. Sam's body has already been used to murder without his consent by Meg and Lucifer. Sam's body was used to almost rape Jo. To me, Sam had the right to say that's not a path I want to take. When Sam came up with the idea of using Doctor Benton's replacement part kit to keep Dean alive eternally, Dean said no and Sam went along with it. He didn't force Dean to live in a way that Dean couldn't tolerate and Dean was facing Hell. Sam was only facing death.

The truth is, I always thought Dean was monumentally wrong in bringing Sam back in AHBL because he totally negated Sam's choice. Sam chose to not give into Azazel's manipulation. He didn't want to die, but he wasn't willing to murder to survive. Sam died clean and pure and we now know, Sam went to heaven. Then Dean pulled him back because Dean didn't want to be alone and didn't want to disobey John's orders to take care of Sam. Now Dean has pulled the same thing again, but this time Sam will be directly effected and not even know it. It creeps me out.

I don't think Sam wanted to die, per se. He certainly didn't want to die at the church. I think that if he knew he would probably die anyway, he would not have stopped trying to shut the Gates of Hell and he would have died saving the world. But I do think that he was ready to die and at peace with that decision. And Dean knew he was because he heard him asking Death to promise him that he could not be brought back. That's why I find what Dean did so offensive, he knew Sam was okay with it and yet he's yanking him back into a world and turning his body over to who knows what.

I also think that Ezekiel wasn't impersonating Dean. I believe that Dean linked with Ezekiel and was speaking to Sam, feeding Ezekiel the right lines. I just don't think Ezekiel could have pulled off an impersonation that good at this time. But it up for interpretation. They were very unclear about that.

[pocochina]

Yeah, it's definitely a major moral problem, but lbr, the bar is pretty low with Dean. To me, there's a big difference between "well, this person is unconscious and I can't know for sure, so I'll err on the side of saving their life," as Dean did in AHBL and in this episode, and "this person is locked up and strapped down screaming NO NO NO, DO NOT ENDANGER MY LIFE but I will go ahead and do the thing anyway." One is...really not good, given everything Dean knows about Sam, but the other is way worse.

Part of my issue is that Dean has never been possessed. Sam has been possessed twice, once with Meg and the with Lucifer. So I think he has the right to say, no not that way.

That's a really important point, and I do agree.

I do think that he was ready to die and at peace with that decision. And Dean knew he was because he heard him asking Death to promise him that he could not be brought back.

To be fair - I can't check the transcript yet, but IIRC - Sam's last line there was basically saying "I want my death to be final because I don't want anyone else can get hurt because of me." And so raising him in a way that wasn't going to lead to anyone else dying or going to hell or anything does remove the reason Sam seemed to be grudgingly accepting his death.

I also think that Ezekiel wasn't impersonating Dean. I believe that Dean linked with Ezekiel and was speaking to Sam, feeding Ezekiel the right lines. I just don't think Ezekiel could have pulled off an impersonation that good at this time. But it up for interpretation. They were very unclear about that.

Oh, yeah, and I liked the uncertainty about that. But I do think Ezekiel had the skills to be using some of Dean's personality or soul or whatever in service to his own purposes - it's not like Dean has ever had a problem lying to Sam on the fly before? It'd have been a lot easier to say "will you let me help you" than "will you let me in" and such - and that means he has the ability to do the same with Sam. SO CREEPY I LOVE IT ALREADY.

[ash48]

he knew Sam was okay with it and yet he's yanking him back into a world and turning his body over to who knows what.

Jumping in because I think it's a really (really!) big distinction between Sam making "peace" with his own impression of Dean (the fighting Dean that we saw) and him deciding to die because he doesn't want to hurt anyone else. Dean only saw Sam say he wants to die forever so he doesn't hurt anyone else. From Dean's pov this is wrong - this isn't Sam dying for a "good" reason. This is Sam dying thinking he's a total screw up (which, ok - it could be argued that he is, but not from Dean's pov).

I know this is a huge leap but one way I have been interpreting is- it's like seeing someone who wants to kill themselves and doing everything within their power to stop it because they think that decision isn't being made with a clear view. That's essentially my reading on how Dean has viewed Sam wanting to die. Sam didn't really want to die (in fact he even says as much after Dean comes to him). I think if Sam really wanted to die he wouldn't have agree to Dean helping him to stay alive.

[pocochina]

it's like seeing someone who wants to kill themselves and doing everything within their power to stop it because they think that decision isn't being made with a clear view

Yes, exactly. I mean, Dean knew what he was doing was majorly fucked up - if he didn't, he wouldn't have tap-danced around getting the technical "yes," he would've laid it out for Sam - and I'm not about to defend this pattern of behavior. But if Sam didn't really, really want to live, he wouldn't have gone with Dean no questions asked based on such mature and cogent arguments as "SAM THERE'S A THING PLEASE DO THE THING!!!"

Again, the fact that Dean was obscuring THE THING at all means that he knows he was playing fast and loose. And his agreement not to tell Sam right away - and acto [Spoiler (click to open)]is going to be going on for at least a few more episodes - is a lot less questionable. Dean has the time now to present a case so Sam can make his own informed decision, or he will very shortly, and he has chosen not to, which is Very Bad.

But the initial reprieve....I honestly do not know. And I love that the episode did enough to keep me going back and forth on this. The episode took pains to lay out these different layers for us, and I think it's fascinating.