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[ginzai]

I need a new sketchbook. Somewhat to my bemusement, I discovered I'd used the last page on my current one yesterday, which was wicked annoying because La Bohème came on the classic movie channel and I really wanted to draw some of the people there. They're all just ridiculously pretty in that 1920's sort of way. Something about how stylized

Comments

[yaya_wr8t3r]

Wow! This is a long rant LOL

It's long because I ramble :)

[ginzai]

I didn't get the impression that Sam was talking about a specific incident with the mention of Ruby so much as what he did all throughout S4. If he was referring to 4x21, they both gave each other ultimatums and the first was given by Sam, not Dean. He told Dean that he could come with and do things Sam's way, or he could stay behind. He'd already been half out the door by the time Dean gave Sam his

Re: It's long because I ramble :)

[muffaletta]

Excellent meta, Phinnie. I also don't see Dean's admission in the final scene as being especially "freeing" for Dean: he basically said that in keeping a short leash on Sam, he missed seeing how things were negatively impacting Sam. The implication, imo, is that Dean needs to maintain a different perspective so he can better take care of Sam's needs. There was nothing from either Dean or Sam about how this new arrangement would benefit both brothers, or about what Sam will do in a mutual effort to fix their old dynamic. Dean seems to be once again bearing the onus of bearing the responsibility of the relationship on his shoulders while Sam needs to....stop drinking blood? screwing demons? As part of becoming a grown up, I'd hope Sam would look inward to see what he can change in his attitude towards Dean-perhaps a little more respect? less eye rolling and fewer bitch faces? less condescending correction of Dean's mistakes? It was actually the non resolution of Dean's annoyed reaction to Sam correcting his Spanish that gives me

Re: It's long because I ramble :)

[ginzai]

Thanks. I see Dean in that last conversation almost taking up a burden again. We saw him in 5x03 as the freest he's been at any point in the series (which could be an interesting meta in its own right, the fact that him accepting separation from his family brought him more peace than his mostly "getting over" Hell did), but the end of the episode felt more to me like he was girding his loins again. He wasn't relaxed like he was in 5x03. He seemed tense to me.

And very much agreed. My issue is much more about the fact that this was unequal than it is that Sam has a bit of a skewed idea of what makes a normal partnership. I don't mind Sam making snide comments or the bitchfaces or the rolled eyes (outside of confessions of Hell, that is) - to me, that's a pretty normal part of being brothers. I do mind that Sam really thinks he's been so put upon and that all he needs to do to fix things is just to tell Dean he needs to stop bossing him around.

Re: It's long because I ramble :)

[muffaletta]

I understand what you're saying about Sam's attitude and within a different context, I too would agree that it simply reflects being a younger brother. After S4 blew open Sam's psyche and exposed his feelings of pride and superiority over Dean (which I don't believe were simply a result of the addiction, considering the dynamics of the previous seasons), though, to me Sam's attitude reflect a deeper issue in his relationship with Dean. As you mentioned, I'm not sure Sam is simply looking for an equal partnership so much as to be the one in control as he wrongly thought he'd found with Ruby. Now Sam's back to chafing at the fact that, despite his own inclination to be the one in charge, Dean is and will always be the oldest. The snideness and reaffirmations of his intellectual prowess seem more like angry, passive aggressive jabs (which Dean, being equally passive aggressive, allows by not saying anything)beyond just brotherly annoyance. And I wonder if these aren't outward manifestions of Sam's inner feeling that he's in the right,

Re: It's long because I ramble :)

[ginzai]

Oh, I definitely think Sam has long had a superiority complex about Dean. Superiority complex and deeply hidden inferiority complex as well, but pretty much every highly conceited individual I've ever met was that way to cover up deep rooted fears about their own worthiness

Re: It's long because I ramble :)

[yaya_wr8t3r]

Well I got the distinct feeling that he was referring to 'When The Levees Break', he said 'one of the reasons I WENT with Ruby', to me that implied he was talking about that motel scene. He's already made it clear in season 4 why he doesn't involve Dean in the search of Lilith, one of them being 'he's not strong enough, when he came back from hell he was different', and also him wanting to look out for his brother just like Dean always did for. I do believe those were major reasons, along with of course the revenge and saving the world and a sense of power

Re: It's long because I ramble :) 1/2

[ginzai]

I think the "went" can conceivably be read in either way, but it makes a lot more sense to me if it's viewed as an entire S4 issue. English sucks at times because "went" can be used both in a plural and singular sense. "I went many times" vs "I went once" - both are correct usage. However, in the context of the conversation, it makes a lot more sense for it to be a general thing. For one, Sam didn't leave in 4x21 because Dean was being too controlling, he left because Dean wouldn't accept Ruby's presence. Dean didn't want to take on Lilith yet, he didn't think they were ready, but he was willing to compromise because that's what Sam wanted. Sam laid out the ultimatium there that Dean could do it his way or not at all. He wasn't willing to compromise.

Honestly, we've not seen Dean less in control of Sam or in a more unstable position in their relationship since, well. Ever. Sam owned that conversation from the get-go. He had the upper hand in their verbal confrontation and he used it to push Dean into calling him a monster

Re: It's long because I ramble :) 1/2

[yaya_wr8t3r]

I don't know, to me he was specifically referring to 'WTLB', and I'll tell you why, the situations were similar in 'Fallen Idol' and 'WTLB'. In 'WTLB' Sam wanted Dean to come with he and Ruby to kill Lilith, Dean said okay but you kiss Ruby goodbye, Sam said he needed her, then he proceeded to plead to Dean to listen to him and for once do things his way and Dean flat out said no. Now in 'Fallen Idol' it's the same situation, Sam had doubts about the hunt actually being finished, and Dean shot him down, Sam saw the pattern again. Which is why I think he was referring to that specific moment in the motel room. Another reason why his statement didn't seem to apply to the whole season, was because Sam never went with Ruby because Dean was being bossy and in a way condescending, Dean was in hell when Sam started things with Ruby so that can't be a reason he went with Ruby. He went with Ruby in the beginning to get revenge on Lilith.

He had the upper hand in their verbal confrontation and he used it to push Dean into calling him a monster

Re: It's long because I ramble :) 1/2

[ginzai]

Sam said he needed her, then he proceeded to plead to Dean to listen to him and for once do things his way and Dean flat out said no

This might be one we have to agree to disagree on. *g* To me, Dean was shown as willing to compromise when he offered to go with Sam when he'd already made it clear that he didn't think them ready and I can't ever be convinced that Sam was bullied into submission and forced to follow Dean's plans all the time.

Dean was in hell when Sam started things with Ruby so that can't be a reason he went with Ruby.That's the hypocrisy that a lot of people are commenting on though. It DID sound to us that Sam was blaming Dean for something he started to do when Dean was dead

Re: It's long because I ramble :) 2/2

[ginzai]

He isn't blaming Dean for any of it, he's blaming himself

I don't even buy that much. Sam put the blame back on Dean when he said that he went with Ruby because Dean bossed him around too much. He might have claimed ownership for the blame there, but that was in word only. Everything else in that conversation was all about what Dean had done wrong.

In the best possible light, it comes out as "I should have told you to back off sooner." And honestly, if that was his only effort to claim his part of the divide, if he didn't even consider mentioning the lying, betrayals, secrets being kept, his sneering sense of superiority, his claims that Dean was weak and stupid, much less the actual beating and strangulation, then don't you think it comes off as hypocritical?

wouldn't that be just like what Dean has always done?Not entirely. Dean has kept his mouth shut before when he felt Sam was going off the right path, but before that was to keep Sam happy. Now it's to keep the world safe

Re: It's long because I ramble :) 2/2

[yaya_wr8t3r]

Not entirely. Dean has kept his mouth shut before when he felt Sam was going off the right path, but before that was to keep Sam happy. Now it's to keep the world safe.

As for doing things out of fear, I see it more as being overly cautious and refusing to be blind. Dean HAS blinded himself to many of Sam's faults. While you think Sam should have called Dean out in 4x01, I think Dean should have called SAM out in S3. He didn't back then, nor in S4 when he really became aware that there was a problem.
He kept his mouth shut about certain things not to keep Sam happy, but out of fear. He was scared that Sam was right about what was going on with his psychic abilities, and Dean was keeping his fears hidden from Sam. He called Sam on his actions in season 3, when Sam told him about Ruby the first time. He couldn't believe that Sam was considering listening to a demon, but when Sam told him that she could save him, Dean listened. Why? Because there was a possibility for him to be saved. When Sam was willing to kill the virgin, Dean called

Re: It's long because I ramble :) 2/2

[ginzai]

But he didn't call him out on it later in the season when Sam was considering becoming a literal undead zombie monster or when Sam was willing to sacrifice Nancy to save everyone. IMHO, saying "we're not killing virgins!" isn't the same as actually sitting Sam down and asking him WTF he was thinking to even have considered it.

That's not worth killing Sam over though and IMHO he was still in denial about how bad Sam had gotten then. I see it more as denial than fear, but Dean would have had to be an optimistic moron to not fear Sam's supposed destiny. I'll grant you that

Re: It's long because I ramble :) 2/2

[yaya_wr8t3r]

Off the top of my head, Hunted and Asylum come to mind, but that wasn't really the main issue.Sam didn't put Dean in danger, they weren't on a hunt. It just so happened that Gordon popped in when he did. Asylum, you're really blaming Sam for thinking that Dean had called him, and Sam went off to assist his brother? Again I don't see that as Sam putting Dean in danger of a hunt

Re: It's long because I ramble :) 2/2

[ginzai]

Sam was very much on a hunt in Hunted - it just wasn't for a MotW. :) And yes, Sam put Dean in danger in Asylum because Sam allowed himself to be infected and then almost killed Dean afterward. For what it's worth, it's not like Dean has never acted poorly on a hunt or gotten Sam in danger - I no more let Dean off the hook for endangering Sam in S&V than I do for Sam Dean in Asylum.

But it was Dean not trusting Sam, and to me that was misplaced, because like I said Sam has never put Dean in dangerExcept for when Sam withheld information and then half killed him in 4x21

Re: It's long because I ramble :) 2/2

[yaya_wr8t3r]

Sam was very much on a hunt in Hunted - it just wasn't for a MotW. :) And yes, Sam put Dean in danger in Asylum because Sam allowed himself to be infected and then almost killed Dean afterward. For what it's worth, it's not like Dean has never acted poorly on a hunt or gotten Sam in danger - I no more let Dean off the hook for endangering Sam in S&V than I do for Sam Dean in Asylum.

You can't compare those incidents with S&V. In Hunted Sam was trying to find information about himself. If anything he endangered himself. Also, in Asylum Sam didn't let himself get infected, he got a call from who he thought was Dean and went to see what Dean had found, and then got caught off guard. It's not the same as Dean not seeing something wrong with Monroe, I mean he didn't even check to see if the guy was real FBI :/ then shared a drink with him, which got him infected. To me that's putting yourself and your partner in danger. It's not the same as what happened in Hunted and Asylum. Sure Dean got caught by Gordon and was in danger, and he was