what makes a good seder?

[cellio]

On Friday a coworker asked me how my Pesach sedarim had been and

Comments

[ext_83338]

I really like your detailed list of what you want out of a seder--this year I decide, half way through a seder I was half enjoying, to lower my expectations, and then it worked for me. There were amazing, incredible components--I was at a table filled with (mostly) educated, engaged Jews. It was the first time I was at a seder where people knew all the songs, and I was excited for the opportunity to learn them better. But they also were in a hurry and sang them really fast and without much feeling, which wasn't exciting. I was hoping for something more intellectually stimulating, but I decided to let go and enjoy what I had. Second night I was at a community seder, which was, well, huge. It managed to touch on pretty much anything and the rabbi put an intellectual spin on a number of the segments, mixed in with a focus on fun. Given what I had envisioned for a community seder, it went pretty well.

[cellio]

I think "everyone wants to be there" is an important point, worth calling out from the more general "commonality of purpose". And I had entirely missed "glad that everyone else is there", which does seem important. Thanks.

What are your in-laws criteria for a successful and valuable Seder? And, do you think your presence satisfies those criteria?I think a primary goal is that of family reunion. That makes it important for Dani to be there; I don't know about me. The father-in-law's wife's kids and their families are usually there (one skipped last year), so I guess that's a data point. (Well, they're there on their side of the family's night.) There are people who miss due to juggling multiple families (for example, my sister-in-law is divorced, so her kids aren't always at the same seder she is), but other than that, people come

[byronhaverford]

I am reminded of one of the first seders that Cara and I went to together. It was organized by one of the women's groups here in Pittsburgh. I was one of two men there (thankfully, the other guy was a friend of mine). The haggadah was /entirely/ replaced by women's lib propaganda. When Howard and I took our turns to read, it was laughable (he got he worst of it, describing how hard it was to flee Egypt with one child on his hip and another in his womb). But I have to say, even an experience like that is "broadening", because it allowed me to understand how others practice (and view) my religion

[cellio]

I went to a women's seder once (perhaps put on by the same organization here in Pittsburgh). It felt somewhat off to me too, for similar reasons. I recall having a sense of it being more about mothers than women, too, which this non-parent did not relate too. No, actually, I don't find personally-resonant liberation themes in child-bearing. (Quite the opposite, actually.)

I'm going to disagree with you here. When Cara and I strive to explain the seder in a way that each child will understand, it forces reflection and introspection about the implications of the holiday to /us/.

I don't think we disagree. Note that I said it should not just be the kid-oriented stuff. The seder has to speak to four kinds of child; all the ones I've been to have done a good job with the simple child and the child who does not know how to ask, but few have done much for the wise child. I want that too. Also, I don't have kids to reflect my perspectives through, and other people's kids don't do that so well. I'm glad you have that useful jumping

[zevabe]

Why not tell the story from Shemot (the book of Exodus)? Rav JB Soloveichik zt"l said that we use the Deuteronomy passage (which was read over first-fruits) to make it first person. Also, reading all of the story in Shemot is well, long. So the option was for depth in a short passage rather than breadth in several parashiyot worth of text. Also, as cellio pointed out, the haggada is telling us the wonderful things G-d did fopr us. By mentioning Moses a lot, it can appear that these are wonderful things Moses did, and take the emphasis off of G-d.

I know a rabbi who was asked to conducted a seder for mentally disabled children. So he said "Once there was a bad person called pharoah. He made our lives bitter like this horseradish. (Eat horseradish) Then a good G-d came and made our lives sweet like grape juice (drink grape juice...serve meal)." I think this emphasises for me the focus on G-d even more than the haggada leaving out Moses. Because Moses is a person, and much easier to understand, but to do so would be to sacrifice the

[cellio]

Reading all of it -- arguably the first 15 chapters or so of Sefer Sh'mot -- would be way too much, of course. The haggadah's exegesis on just a few passages is good for people who already have a good foundation -- certainly true of the folks who wrote the haggadah and the audience they had in mind -- but sails over the heads of people who lack that. (I've seen it happen.) So also reading an abridged version from Sh'mot sounds like a reasonable idea to me, if you have kids or gentiles or un-educated Jews present.

And you want to abridge it not just because it's long but because it's repetitive in places. Most of the two plagues parshiyot follow this pattern: God tells Moshe "tell Paro $condition or I will do $plague", Moshe tells Paro "God says $condition or he will do $plague", and Paro ignores $condition and God does $plague. You can trim that down for the at-the-seder teaching.

[mabfan]

I wonder if you would enjoy attending a Feld family seder. They stick to the book, but then add a lot of exegesis.

[zevabe]

Traditional text plus exegesis? Sounds good to me.

[cellio]

I expect that I would, having enjoyed Feld family seudot and Feld family Shabbat meals. (DC branch of Feld family, to clarify.)

[dagonell]

Umm, non-Jews can wrangle an invite? I *do* admit I have been curious... :)
-- Dagonell

[byronhaverford]

It is, in fact, encouraged!

I shall note once again that there are many extant medieval haggadot....

[cellio]

Yup. The year that I decided at the last minute that I needed to find a seder, I was fully prepared to play the "ha lachma anya" card if needed. :-) ("This is the bread of affliction. Let all who are hungry come and eat." Who says it's only about physical hunger?)

If I ever get to hold a seder, you're invited.

[zevabe]

I am accustomed to understanding that "all who are hungry" refers to a physical hunger and the continuation "all who need" refers to a spiritual need (all who need a paschal sacrifice). So while satisfying a non-Jew's curiosity may not technically fit into either, it still seems to be in the spirit...maybe.