Yup. The year that I decided at the last minute that I needed to find a seder, I was fully prepared to play the "ha lachma anya" card if needed. :-) ("This is the bread of affliction. Let all who are hungry come and eat." Who says it's only about physical hunger?)
I am accustomed to understanding that "all who are hungry" refers to a physical hunger and the continuation "all who need" refers to a spiritual need (all who need a paschal sacrifice). So while satisfying a non-Jew's curiosity may not technically fit into either, it still seems to be in the spirit...maybe.
Call it a spiritual searching, then. I was raised *strictly* Roman Catholic, the old school 1960's brainwashing factory. The "everyone but RCs are going to burn in hell so don't even *think* about questioning your faith, just do as you're told" old school. Needless to say, I abandoned it all when I moved out of the house. Which doesn't mean that I don't need a spiritual background, merely that the one I was raised in wasn't fulfilling my needs. Is Judaism for me? Probably not, but I'm not going to rule out anything without checking it out first...
I would be happy to help you connect with folks local to you, if you would like, so you can pursue that curiosity. And if not, that's totally fine too.
As a host, am I obligated to include a non-Jew who asks? Strictly speaking, probably not. But I'm not sure, and I'd rather be the kind of host who welcomes people in rather than pushing them out, and for all I know this might be just the thing that's needed to send someone down a good path.
Also, lots of people have done nice things for me, sometimes going considerably out of their way, without being willing to accept anything in return. If they paid it forward, I can too.
Many people understand this to be not meant seriously anyway, much like the permission to pray with sinners of Yom Kippur (The rest of the year we are not permitting sinners to daven in our midst?) Anyone who showed up at that point in seder, welcome or not, already missed a few key parts (namely kiddush and karpas, plus seeing where the afikoman went). Also, in the days of korban pesach (passover sacrifice) you had to be signed up with your group in advance (special rule for passover sacrifice). So you couldn't show up that night and join in, you needed advance reservations. So technically, you aren't OBLIGATED to include a Jew who asks, at least for those opinions. Helping him find a seder if he wants one badly enough is certainly a good idea, but you need not feed him yourself.
Anyone who showed up at that point in seder, welcome or not, already missed a few key parts
Right. But if the stranger knows the seder content, he can reasonably show up at the beginning, point out that you are going to say those words later, and ask to come in. I would let him in and not ask questions about his status.
I would argue that you are obligated to do so. I cannot parse "all who are hungry" in any way that renders it exclusive to Jews. Thus, the answer you arrive at for Jews must be the same as the answer you arrive at for non-Jews. Would you invite a non-practicing Jew who was curious about how your service differs from his own? If yes, then you should invite a non-Jew who is similarly curious.
If memory serves, halacha requires that you invite all of your servants, whether they are Jewish or not, but they must be circumcised to sit at the seder table. Memory often fails to serve, however, so don't take that lying down.
Would you mind re-posting this issue as a new thread? If I post it, no one new will answer, but your posts seem to catch the attention of serious talmudic scholars (including yourself).
There is at least one halachic concern with inviting a non-Jew: one is not allowed to cook on the holiday for someone who is not Jewish. This hasn't kept me from inviting non-Jews to my seders (when I've hosted), but it has meant I did all of the actual cooking in advance.
I've heard of that issue. I assume that cooking food that is not, of necessity, individually portioned would also cover that case. If I'm serving individual steaks I might have a problem; if I'm serving brisket or just made a bunch of chicken pieces or something like that, where portioning is variable anyway, that shouldn't be a concern.
I understand "cooking for the sake of a non-Jew" to mean cooking specifically for that person, as opposed to cooking food that I would have cooked anyway that a non-Jew happens to eat. But I could certainly be wrong; I haven't studied this point.
I don't see anything in the plain text that limits it to Jews either. I was responding to someone giving the traditional reading of it. I don't think the traditional reading gets the last word on it, but I do want to understand it.
I believe you are correct about the servants. That might be about the household, though, and might not (halachically) extend to non-Jews from off the street.
-- Dagonell
Reply
I shall note once again that there are many extant medieval haggadot....
Reply
If I ever get to hold a seder, you're invited.
Reply
Reply
Reply
I would be happy to help you connect with folks local to you, if you would like, so you can pursue that curiosity. And if not, that's totally fine too.
Reply
Also, lots of people have done nice things for me, sometimes going considerably out of their way, without being willing to accept anything in return. If they paid it forward, I can too.
Reply
Reply
Right. But if the stranger knows the seder content, he can reasonably show up at the beginning, point out that you are going to say those words later, and ask to come in. I would let him in and not ask questions about his status.
Reply
I would argue that you are obligated to do so. I cannot parse "all who are hungry" in any way that renders it exclusive to Jews. Thus, the answer you arrive at for Jews must be the same as the answer you arrive at for non-Jews. Would you invite a non-practicing Jew who was curious about how your service differs from his own? If yes, then you should invite a non-Jew who is similarly curious.
If memory serves, halacha requires that you invite all of your servants, whether they are Jewish or not, but they must be circumcised to sit at the seder table. Memory often fails to serve, however, so don't take that lying down.
Would you mind re-posting this issue as a new thread? If I post it, no one new will answer, but your posts seem to catch the attention of serious talmudic scholars (including yourself).
Reply
Reply
Reply
Reply
Reply
Reply
I believe you are correct about the servants. That might be about the household, though, and might not (halachically) extend to non-Jews from off the street.
Reposting: done. (And thanks for the compliment.)
Reply
Leave a comment