I am reminded of one of the first seders that Cara and I went to together. It was organized by one of the women's groups here in Pittsburgh. I was one of two men there (thankfully, the other guy was a friend of mine). The haggadah was /entirely/ replaced by women's lib propaganda. When Howard and I took our turns to read, it was laughable (he got he worst of it, describing how hard it was to flee Egypt with one child on his hip and another in his womb). But I have to say, even an experience like that is "broadening", because it allowed me to understand how others practice (and view) my religion
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I went to a women's seder once (perhaps put on by the same organization here in Pittsburgh). It felt somewhat off to me too, for similar reasons. I recall having a sense of it being more about mothers than women, too, which this non-parent did not relate too. No, actually, I don't find personally-resonant liberation themes in child-bearing. (Quite the opposite, actually.)
I'm going to disagree with you here. When Cara and I strive to explain the seder in a way that each child will understand, it forces reflection and introspection about the implications of the holiday to /us/.
I don't think we disagree. Note that I said it should not just be the kid-oriented stuff. The seder has to speak to four kinds of child; all the ones I've been to have done a good job with the simple child and the child who does not know how to ask, but few have done much for the wise child. I want that too. Also, I don't have kids to reflect my perspectives through, and other people's kids don't do that so well. I'm glad you have that useful jumping
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Why not tell the story from Shemot (the book of Exodus)? Rav JB Soloveichik zt"l said that we use the Deuteronomy passage (which was read over first-fruits) to make it first person. Also, reading all of the story in Shemot is well, long. So the option was for depth in a short passage rather than breadth in several parashiyot worth of text. Also, as cellio pointed out, the haggada is telling us the wonderful things G-d did fopr us. By mentioning Moses a lot, it can appear that these are wonderful things Moses did, and take the emphasis off of G-d.
I know a rabbi who was asked to conducted a seder for mentally disabled children. So he said "Once there was a bad person called pharoah. He made our lives bitter like this horseradish. (Eat horseradish) Then a good G-d came and made our lives sweet like grape juice (drink grape juice...serve meal)." I think this emphasises for me the focus on G-d even more than the haggada leaving out Moses. Because Moses is a person, and much easier to understand, but to do so would be to sacrifice the
Reading all of it -- arguably the first 15 chapters or so of Sefer Sh'mot -- would be way too much, of course. The haggadah's exegesis on just a few passages is good for people who already have a good foundation -- certainly true of the folks who wrote the haggadah and the audience they had in mind -- but sails over the heads of people who lack that. (I've seen it happen.) So also reading an abridged version from Sh'mot sounds like a reasonable idea to me, if you have kids or gentiles or un-educated Jews present.
And you want to abridge it not just because it's long but because it's repetitive in places. Most of the two plagues parshiyot follow this pattern: God tells Moshe "tell Paro $condition or I will do $plague", Moshe tells Paro "God says $condition or he will do $plague", and Paro ignores $condition and God does $plague. You can trim that down for the at-the-seder teaching.
>a kid who actually wants to be there would make a huge difference.
This year (at my sister's Lubavitch seder) I crashed at 1AM, at about the third cup. Joshua stayed up through the entire service, and he and my brother-in-law were the only ones left awake to greet Eliyahu.
Yet it would be going too far to say that he "wanted to be there". He /wanted/ to stay up past his father.
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I'm going to disagree with you here. When Cara and I strive to explain the seder in a way that each child will understand, it forces reflection and introspection about the implications of the holiday to /us/.
I don't think we disagree. Note that I said it should not just be the kid-oriented stuff. The seder has to speak to four kinds of child; all the ones I've been to have done a good job with the simple child and the child who does not know how to ask, but few have done much for the wise child. I want that too. Also, I don't have kids to reflect my perspectives through, and other people's kids don't do that so well. I'm glad you have that useful jumping ( ... )
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I know a rabbi who was asked to conducted a seder for mentally disabled children. So he said "Once there was a bad person called pharoah. He made our lives bitter like this horseradish. (Eat horseradish) Then a good G-d came and made our lives sweet like grape juice (drink grape juice...serve meal)." I think this emphasises for me the focus on G-d even more than the haggada leaving out Moses. Because Moses is a person, and much easier to understand, but to do so would be to sacrifice the
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And you want to abridge it not just because it's long but because it's repetitive in places. Most of the two plagues parshiyot follow this pattern: God tells Moshe "tell Paro $condition or I will do $plague", Moshe tells Paro "God says $condition or he will do $plague", and Paro ignores $condition and God does $plague. You can trim that down for the at-the-seder teaching.
Reply
This year (at my sister's Lubavitch seder) I crashed at 1AM, at about the third cup. Joshua stayed up through the entire service, and he and my brother-in-law were the only ones left awake to greet Eliyahu.
Yet it would be going too far to say that he "wanted to be there". He /wanted/ to stay up past his father.
Reply
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