Well, I watched it fighting a nasty case of bronchitis and I have been keeping myself entertained by watching past seasons of Supernatural so I have a feeling that all colored my response going in.
I knew Dean was due to go off the deep end and that the boys would be at odds.
*I just don't get why Sam went in to kill Crowley just armed with what Rowena gave him. Why would he trust her hex bag? I missed Sam being smarter on that one.
*Why did Cas go down so easy and almost end up killed? He has his grace back and I remember him with stolen grace being able to grab demon Dean at the beginning of the season to save Sam. Is there something I'm missing on that?
I told my watching partner, it makes me want to write my own ending where Cas goes to Heaven to fetch Bobby so he can help co-ordinate a plan to save the Idgits!
That is probably the watching past seasons talking right there.
Didn't hate it but was disappointed at many parts of it.
*I just don't get why Sam went in to kill Crowley just armed with what Rowena gave him. Why would he trust her hex bag? I missed Sam being smarter on that one.
Yeah, good question. I pondered this also. My thinking is Sam didn't know how to kill Crowley. He is the King of Hell after all. He knows Rowena really wanted him dead so assumed her hex would work. Sam doesn't have anything in his arsenal to kill Crowley (that knife wouldn't have either I don't think).
*Why did Cas go down so easy and almost end up killed?This is the biggest problem I have with the episode. How did MoC!Dean beat and angel And also - why wasn't Cas called to try and save Charlie once the boys found her? How did he not know everything that was going on? I can only assume he's more "human" than he's ever been. On twitter, someone suggested he has no power because he's cut off from heaven. To be honest, I have no idea. I don't why they gave Cas his juice and now he can't use it. He could hold demon!Dean but not MoC!Dean? My "fanon" is that he didn'
( ... )
That was my take on it. He doesn't fight back. I also think Dean has some sort of superstrength from the Mark--look how he busted out of that leather cuff.
I just don't care about any of them right now. They are all awful people. At least Crowley is vaguely interesting again.
Which is sad, because Pedowitz at the Upfronts this morning pretty much guaranteed this show will only end when J2 don't need money for the #boathouse anymore lol
Just such awful people. It makes me remember that I like it when they rise above the awful people they hunt, not become them. But this was about becoming the monster right?
because Pedowitz at the Upfronts this morning pretty much guaranteed this show will only end when J2
Oh good. I'm glad you mentioned that here. I saw it on twitter, then couldn't find it again to comment (yeah, I'm that inept). So, the Js run this show? As in, they'll decide when this is over? As far as I can see that will be…never! Surely show will have run its course by - if not the next season, surely the one after? I mean, how many times can we end with Sam or Dean dying?!
(though I like that Pedowitz is so supportive. Is there actually money in this show now though?).
Right? Like, you know I love me some Psycho-chesters, but that's not what we got last night. I just don't feel anything for any of these people right now. Dean saying he wishes his brother was dead? Nope, not here for that, but I'll let the rest of you fanwank that for me lol.
The show is pure profit for the studio right now. Every episode adds to the syndication profit, and even with J2's salaries, the budgeting is modest. For the network, it's one of the most stable shows they have, and does well for them in the 18-34 male demo, which is THE demo that Pedowitz has been courting since replacing Ostroff. Don't listen to fandom, the ad money that is being courted (financial, automotive, etc) is linked to that demo.
Pedowitz loves the show. He goes up to Van yearly to wine and dine J2. Same with Peter Roth, the head of WB.
Nope, not here for that, but I'll let the rest of you fanwank that for me lol.
Ha! we're good at that. :) Strangely I felt little from that comment because..what the hell? Pure baiting for the drama. Dean, even with this amount of MoC influence, would never say that. But then we had Dean try and kill Sam in the season opener. Maybe Carver showing his true colours toward Sam? (though Dean doesn't get off lightly. I've never disliked him as much as I have this season…*weeps*).
and does well for them in the 18-34 male demo, which is THE demo that Pedowitz has been courting since replacing Ostroff. I'm sorry…what? Males watch this show? I mean, I know some of my pre-pubesent boys like the show but 18-34?? So you're kinda messing up my fan head with the belief that the only reason they're keeping Cas on is because of that powerful section of fandom. So, the con presence isn't reflective of the general watching demo? I clearly know very little about all this
( ... )
I could squee and I could bitch. I saw brilliance and I saw major fail. I'm just…what is this show?!
This is me right now.I liked a few things, but overall I hate the storyline and have all season. I am also very disappointed in the writers, because I know they can do better than this.
But I am here for the duration, however long it lasts. However disappointed and angry I get.
Because I remember what was and AUs fix it all. I just wish it didn't have to be fixed, that's all.
I am also very disappointed in the writers, because I know they can do better than this.
But they don't have to? Ok, cynical I know, but I think they know they have a dedicated fan base that will stick by because these characters have latched onto out hearts and just won't let go.
Wow, got longwinded. Sorry.
Oh hun, you really didn't. You should see the ep reaction I started writing for this ep. 10 paragraphs in and I thought - this will never end! So, I hear ya. They continue to kill us by tearing apart the very thing we watch this show for. We know the boys will be back together, but each time they get back there's added baggage that's surely got to get to heavy to carry one day. :(
Saving grace? We know we have another 23 eps ahead and most of them will be them working side by side together. :)
But right at this moment I'm finding it very hard to believe. My own cynicism showing through.
The main thing right now is I can't WAIT to see how they're going to fix this mess. (And if I don't like it, there's always writing a fix-it to fall back on.)
I'm just impatient for them to get it FIXED already and move on to being the brothers we know and love. They're IN there, it shows even now, with Dean trying to keep Sam away from him to protect Sam and Sam making very questionable choices to save Dean....
Seriously, boys, Mary and John need to come back just to whip your behinds and make you two solve it.
*glances down at the newborn plot bunny gnawing on her leg* .....GREAT......
I ended up more satisfied than I've felt in a while! Dean's rampage reminded me of that classic moment in "Raiders of the Lost Ark" when Indy pulls out the gun and shoots the guy, like, "F*** this, it's time to move on." The Stynes were clichéd, annoying, time-wasting bad guys, and I was practically whooping at the screen as Dean coldly and efficiently got rid of them one by one.
I have yet to understand why a battle between angels, or between an angel and a human, is a FIST FIGHT, so my response to the Dean-Cas smackdown was, "Whatever."
Sam is an idiot. He reminds me of all the overeducated people I've worked with over the years who can't figure out how to hit the green button on the copier to make a copy.
I would LOVE to see Crowley go Full Evil. The actor's got the chops for it - let's put him to work, and give the boys a fully layered, worthy adversary.
Dean's rampage over the Stynes was one of my fave things. He DIDN"T LET THEM MONOLOGUE! Best thing ever! I was surprised they were gone so quickly. But then I remember there's heaps of them, so they still could be the Big Bad next season. Dean needed heaps of bodies to kill so it was the perfect set up.
I have yet to understand why a battle between angels, or between an angel and a human, is a FIST FIGHT,
THIS SO MUCH! I have never followed this logic. Even in earlier eps (ya know, the golden years), demon or angels fighting the Winchesters with their fists. What even is that. With one power bolt Cas could have had Dean incapacitated. It was the weakest moment for me. If ever Cas was in effectual it was now (and last week). I wish I knew what they were doing with him…
Sam is an idiot. He reminds me of all the overeducated people I've worked with over the years who can't figure out how to hit the green button on the copier to make a copy.Oh, you gotta talk to me more about this. You mean when he met with Crowley? Or
( ... )
I'm going to try not to litter all over your comment section. :)
Yes, with the Sam thing. He's so brilliant, but he's blinded by his (perceived and real) failures with Dean. One thing that has really come through, finally, is that Dean is definitely not okay, hasn't been okay all year, and he's finally snapped--and still looks so hot while snapping. All season long, I've been complaining that they were telling-not-showing the MOC, but last night, they showed me (and I was bloodthirsty for it, as well).
The Castiel thing, though. That's really my biggest problem with this ep. I don't understand why he didn't incapacitate Dean--why he couldn't or wouldn't. I don't get it.
I watched three eps in a row, which I actually think helped improve the coherency of the whole thing. And I actually watched! Not watch...ff....watch...and so on. I thought all three episodes were....pretty good. Fine. Not as good as our best certainly, but much better than our worst. (And I completely agree with you about the Claire episode - best episode of that story arc by far)
As for this one....if I am working under the assumption that Dean was under the influence of the mark when he made the comment to Sam about wishing Sam was dead, then I think the vast majority of the episode works. If this is the new Dean, then I will feel very differently.
Because it is a law of the universe that Dean does NOT want Sam dead.
Dean was absolutely under the influence of the Mark. Totally. For a man who has done pretty questionable things to save Sam, this is not the man who'd wish he was dead. I think it was the biggest indication that he was not himself in anyway
( ... )
First I do believe that Dean is under the influence of the Mark. I do think we have to remember that although Dean is willing to do questionable things to keep Sam alive, he also has been more than willing to let Sam die
( ... )
I think the Mark amps up Dean's anger, and his long held resentments. I think it removes the love he has for anyone. I think it removes his inhibitions. I don't think it actually changes his basic feelings.
That is my feeling also. A bit like when Sam was possessed waaaay back in S1 (asylum). He had no inhibitions and said what was deep inside him. I think that's true for Dean also. I think they both fight those deep feelings, even though they do genuinely love each other.
Dean's willingness to let Sam die is such an interesting topic. I think Sam's death is about when it's on his terms. When Sam died at the end of S2 he couldn't live with the idea that he failed Sam and that he'd be without him - so he brought him back. I felt that was the same situation at the beginning of S9. Dean felt he had failed Sam and couldn't live without him. He blames Sam for the blood addiction and being soulless so him his death resulted it's not about Dean being to blame (even though, indirectly, Dean was involved in both of those
( ... )
Comments 112
I knew Dean was due to go off the deep end and that the boys would be at odds.
*I just don't get why Sam went in to kill Crowley just armed with what Rowena gave him. Why would he trust her hex bag? I missed Sam being smarter on that one.
*Why did Cas go down so easy and almost end up killed? He has his grace back and I remember him with stolen grace being able to grab demon Dean at the beginning of the season to save Sam. Is there something I'm missing on that?
I told my watching partner, it makes me want to write my own ending where Cas goes to Heaven to fetch Bobby so he can help co-ordinate a plan to save the Idgits!
That is probably the watching past seasons talking right there.
Didn't hate it but was disappointed at many parts of it.
Reply
Yeah, good question. I pondered this also. My thinking is Sam didn't know how to kill Crowley. He is the King of Hell after all. He knows Rowena really wanted him dead so assumed her hex would work. Sam doesn't have anything in his arsenal to kill Crowley (that knife wouldn't have either I don't think).
*Why did Cas go down so easy and almost end up killed?This is the biggest problem I have with the episode. How did MoC!Dean beat and angel And also - why wasn't Cas called to try and save Charlie once the boys found her? How did he not know everything that was going on? I can only assume he's more "human" than he's ever been. On twitter, someone suggested he has no power because he's cut off from heaven. To be honest, I have no idea. I don't why they gave Cas his juice and now he can't use it. He could hold demon!Dean but not MoC!Dean? My "fanon" is that he didn' ( ... )
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Which is sad, because Pedowitz at the Upfronts this morning pretty much guaranteed this show will only end when J2 don't need money for the #boathouse anymore lol
Reply
because Pedowitz at the Upfronts this morning pretty much guaranteed this show will only end when J2
Oh good. I'm glad you mentioned that here. I saw it on twitter, then couldn't find it again to comment (yeah, I'm that inept). So, the Js run this show? As in, they'll decide when this is over? As far as I can see that will be…never! Surely show will have run its course by - if not the next season, surely the one after? I mean, how many times can we end with Sam or Dean dying?!
(though I like that Pedowitz is so supportive. Is there actually money in this show now though?).
Hmmm, so many question marks...
Reply
The show is pure profit for the studio right now. Every episode adds to the syndication profit, and even with J2's salaries, the budgeting is modest. For the network, it's one of the most stable shows they have, and does well for them in the 18-34 male demo, which is THE demo that Pedowitz has been courting since replacing Ostroff. Don't listen to fandom, the ad money that is being courted (financial, automotive, etc) is linked to that demo.
Pedowitz loves the show. He goes up to Van yearly to wine and dine J2. Same with Peter Roth, the head of WB.
Reply
Ha! we're good at that. :) Strangely I felt little from that comment because..what the hell? Pure baiting for the drama. Dean, even with this amount of MoC influence, would never say that. But then we had Dean try and kill Sam in the season opener. Maybe Carver showing his true colours toward Sam? (though Dean doesn't get off lightly. I've never disliked him as much as I have this season…*weeps*).
and does well for them in the 18-34 male demo, which is THE demo that Pedowitz has been courting since replacing Ostroff. I'm sorry…what? Males watch this show? I mean, I know some of my pre-pubesent boys like the show but 18-34?? So you're kinda messing up my fan head with the belief that the only reason they're keeping Cas on is because of that powerful section of fandom. So, the con presence isn't reflective of the general watching demo? I clearly know very little about all this ( ... )
Reply
This is me right now.I liked a few things, but overall I hate the storyline and have all season. I am also very disappointed in the writers, because I know they can do better than this.
But I am here for the duration, however long it lasts. However disappointed and angry I get.
Because I remember what was and AUs fix it all. I just wish it didn't have to be fixed, that's all.
Wow, got longwinded. Sorry.
Reply
But they don't have to? Ok, cynical I know, but I think they know they have a dedicated fan base that will stick by because these characters have latched onto out hearts and just won't let go.
Wow, got longwinded. Sorry.
Oh hun, you really didn't. You should see the ep reaction I started writing for this ep. 10 paragraphs in and I thought - this will never end! So, I hear ya. They continue to kill us by tearing apart the very thing we watch this show for. We know the boys will be back together, but each time they get back there's added baggage that's surely got to get to heavy to carry one day. :(
Saving grace? We know we have another 23 eps ahead and most of them will be them working side by side together. :)
Reply
But right at this moment I'm finding it very hard to believe. My own cynicism showing through.
The main thing right now is I can't WAIT to see how they're going to fix this mess. (And if I don't like it, there's always writing a fix-it to fall back on.)
I'm just impatient for them to get it FIXED already and move on to being the brothers we know and love. They're IN there, it shows even now, with Dean trying to keep Sam away from him to protect Sam and Sam making very questionable choices to save Dean....
Seriously, boys, Mary and John need to come back just to whip your behinds and make you two solve it.
*glances down at the newborn plot bunny gnawing on her leg* .....GREAT......
Reply
I have yet to understand why a battle between angels, or between an angel and a human, is a FIST FIGHT, so my response to the Dean-Cas smackdown was, "Whatever."
Sam is an idiot. He reminds me of all the overeducated people I've worked with over the years who can't figure out how to hit the green button on the copier to make a copy.
I would LOVE to see Crowley go Full Evil. The actor's got the chops for it - let's put him to work, and give the boys a fully layered, worthy adversary.
Reply
ETA: I LOVED seeing Crowley "hulk out" at the end!! that little red mist coming from his eyes!!! YEAH!
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I have yet to understand why a battle between angels, or between an angel and a human, is a FIST FIGHT,
THIS SO MUCH! I have never followed this logic. Even in earlier eps (ya know, the golden years), demon or angels fighting the Winchesters with their fists. What even is that. With one power bolt Cas could have had Dean incapacitated. It was the weakest moment for me. If ever Cas was in effectual it was now (and last week). I wish I knew what they were doing with him…
Sam is an idiot. He reminds me of all the overeducated people I've worked with over the years who can't figure out how to hit the green button on the copier to make a copy.Oh, you gotta talk to me more about this. You mean when he met with Crowley? Or ( ... )
Reply
Yes, with the Sam thing. He's so brilliant, but he's blinded by his (perceived and real) failures with Dean. One thing that has really come through, finally, is that Dean is definitely not okay, hasn't been okay all year, and he's finally snapped--and still looks so hot while snapping. All season long, I've been complaining that they were telling-not-showing the MOC, but last night, they showed me (and I was bloodthirsty for it, as well).
The Castiel thing, though. That's really my biggest problem with this ep. I don't understand why he didn't incapacitate Dean--why he couldn't or wouldn't. I don't get it.
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As for this one....if I am working under the assumption that Dean was under the influence of the mark when he made the comment to Sam about wishing Sam was dead, then I think the vast majority of the episode works. If this is the new Dean, then I will feel very differently.
Because it is a law of the universe that Dean does NOT want Sam dead.
Just saying. :)
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That is my feeling also. A bit like when Sam was possessed waaaay back in S1 (asylum). He had no inhibitions and said what was deep inside him. I think that's true for Dean also. I think they both fight those deep feelings, even though they do genuinely love each other.
Dean's willingness to let Sam die is such an interesting topic. I think Sam's death is about when it's on his terms. When Sam died at the end of S2 he couldn't live with the idea that he failed Sam and that he'd be without him - so he brought him back. I felt that was the same situation at the beginning of S9. Dean felt he had failed Sam and couldn't live without him. He blames Sam for the blood addiction and being soulless so him his death resulted it's not about Dean being to blame (even though, indirectly, Dean was involved in both of those ( ... )
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