(Untitled)

Apr 24, 2008 09:32

Yesterday I got into an unpleasant discussion with another LJ user on the topic of Child Protection Agencies and the removal of children from their homes wither upon the determination of, or while the situation is being investigated whether the child is safer being removed from the parents or the current place of residence ( Read more... )

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Comments 76

ingwall April 24 2008, 15:48:43 UTC
Алиса, можно я это переведу и дам ссылку? У меня одна знакомая недавно поругалась во френдленте ровно по тому же поводу.

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alisa_ivanovna April 24 2008, 15:50:37 UTC
da konechno mozhno....

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vremyavpered April 24 2008, 16:26:11 UTC
Aliska,
i thought up long and hard before replying, thought up very long replies, and point-to-point replies, and what's-not.

However, all of it can be summed up by this:

if even a fraction of the CPS and people associated with CPS think along the lines of what you've written here, I'm terrified, for myself -- and for the child i am about to "squeeze out", even though, of course, this is not at all about me.

That's all.

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vremyavpered April 24 2008, 17:16:46 UTC
no, i guess i can't shut up.
here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_Generation

this is of what this mindset reminds me.

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alisa_ivanovna April 24 2008, 19:10:58 UTC
well, that just shows how ignorant you are.

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alisa_ivanovna April 24 2008, 19:07:35 UTC
No, it's not about you, and if you terrors are realized at any point of the life of your soon to be born child, I'll take the damage done to you and your family under account when formulating my opinions.

I also think it is rather cruel and insensitive of you to use language that refers to a situation that you know caused me a lot of grief, and that I very much regretted being a part of , and "squeezing" it into conversation. It feels very much like a deliberate stab in the back.

Yes, most people who work with or for or around CPS think along the lines that I do. Though most of them are a lot less educated and intelligent, and aren't as willing to consider opposing sides or arguments.

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putting my devil's advocate hat on... kovrov April 24 2008, 16:36:18 UTC
it is a no-brainer that children should be taken out of situations in which they are abused, neglected or harmed in any way

You mean that the only children that may be left at home are those who are not harmed by their in *any* way? Any way at all? How many would that leave?

THIS IS NOT ABOUT YOU, and it is not even about YOUR rights.

And it's going to happen within the framework of the imperfect but definitely functioning system, that really doesn't care about you or your privileged spawn shivering with terror of being separated

Fair enough, but is it really that "grotesque" to be protective of ones rights in dealing with a system that starts with the premise of not caring about you or your rights?

This is about the children who are starved, beaten, raped, burned, tied up, put away in cages, poisoned, frozen, made ill, molested, left alone for hours, not treated for illness, given drugs or alcohol, and psychologically abused by threats or screaming, or kids who have to live in dirty and dangerous shelters because the parents ( ... )

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Re: putting my devil's advocate hat on... alisa_ivanovna April 24 2008, 18:49:44 UTC
What about children whose parents raise their children in a religious tradition that is at odds with "the guidelines"? Is not feeding your child milk or meat abuse? What about cutting off your son's foreskin while putting wine in their mouth when he is a mere 8-day-old baby?

no, i don;t think either I, or anyone in their right mind would legally be able to prove it to be abuse.

Made ill how?
how about by laying in their own feces for a few weeks?

Not treated from what illness?

how about ADD?

You make all of these sound so clear-cut. And as for threats and screaming, I think that most of my Russian Jewish "privileged spawn" friends are still dealing with decades-old trauma based on that. Should we all have been institutionalized long ago?DO I make them sound clear cut? Or is that your interpretation ( ... )

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Re: putting my devil's advocate hat on... kovrov April 25 2008, 02:31:57 UTC
Congratulations, Aliska, I stand defeated. Keep choosing your battles wisely.

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Re: putting my devil's advocate hat on... larvatus April 27 2008, 18:15:38 UTC
how about ADD?

How about ODD?

How much are Scientologists paying you for this performance?

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aregjan April 24 2008, 16:40:10 UTC
Aliska, I totally disagree with you here ( ... )

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alisa_ivanovna April 24 2008, 18:56:49 UTC
Well, I am sorry Areg, but I think that IDIOTIC reports are worth the risk. I think that a hundred ruined reputations are worth the effort to find that kid who is being kept in the cage. Because you know what? On day that kid will get out of that cage, climb over the fence and stab your kid in the throat.

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uzheletta April 24 2008, 19:40:29 UTC
Aliska, i'm terryfied for myself and my kids after reading what you wrote :(
i think i love them very much and i'm positive that nobody will love them more or care for them better (well, maybe somebody may care for them better than I do), but I'm pretty sure there are many things in my house (starting from circumcision) that might be considered "abuse". actually, I was left alone in the appt, since I was 3 years old, there was plenty of screaming and spanking in my parent's house, still I'm terryfied that I could have been taken away by well-meaning authority. ALso, there is a lot of research on attachment, separation and its long-term effect. you might wanto to consider it.
(not to say that some kids shouldn't be removed. they should be, but it's an extreme measure, for extreme cases, and the system shouldn't assume that parents are guilty before charged).

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patterner April 24 2008, 19:53:24 UTC
Dramatic name-calling and borderline threats aside, it does seem that this is an argument about facts based on emotion. I am sure that it would often be difficult to decide after the fact how many cps cases were mistaken, but surely there have been some. Is there any possible way to determine how widespread mistaken child-removal is, and what the effects are? Certainly it must not be very hard to look at the success rates of children in the foster care system, and how often they are subsequently abused by foster families, etc. I am not under the impression that these kids have a happily-ever-after sort of life, but if the system is successful, that is really great. In any case, these sorts of things need to be based on outcomes for the children rather than on how strongly we all feel about these issues.

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evemaru April 24 2008, 20:29:14 UTC
The most important argument that you have is "it's not about you".
but sadly, it is. It can affect ANYONE, any strong, happy family and it did.
You are right, many parents ARE terrified and they have every right to be.
Something needs to change.
If I may say so... I feel that only becoming a parent will change your opinion.

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