oh come on!

[thingswithwings]

I'm eventually going to have to remake that vid, aren't I? MY GOOD GOD.

very spoilery pictures for SGA 5x15.

Comments

[anatsuno]

just running ou the doorm but-- is it that they unconsciously bemoan the violence and difficulty inherent in being the heroic-wannabe white boy in the big harsh world out there? are they somehow trying to sell us the idea that white men are the demographics that has it the hardest, like so many idiots already are? sometimes I seriously wonder.

(but your reading for bodies=ickiness is the one I favor too, really).

[thingswithwings]

yeah, that may be part of it, too . . . I hadn't thought of that. I think you could do a reading of Common Ground, in particular, that goes along those lines . . . the fact that Sheppard has it hard because he's the leader and therefore targeted, the pain he has to endure as a man in a position of power . . . hm. I dunno, though, I find it difficult to apply that reading to the show at large for some reason.

[almostnever]

I could almost see it. Like "Oh, you think white guys have it so easy, but when you have this much social power and privilege, it just makes everyone else want to cut you down!"

[almostnever]

And: I also wonder if someone on the writing staff has an unconscious fetish for the kneeling, and the comments from Shep about same are written in by other writers to try to acknowledge that it shows up such an awful lot.

[isagel]

For me, personally, the canonical fucked-up situations where John is forced to submit to sexualized violence create a desire to off-set that with stories where he submits sexually in a non-violent, loving context. For him as a character, but also on a more general level, I feel the need to take the on-screen physical submission and make it...healthy? non-icky? sane? And that certainly springs from a discomfort about how it's handled on the show. Even though I do very much like some of the implications of having the male white american soldier hero on his knees.

I have no clue what the PTB think they're consciously going for. It is a very, very weird thing.

I'm not so sure, though, that I completely agree with the assessment that the Ancients and ascenscion are held up as the good side of the scale. Bodies=bad, yes, but over the course of the show, the characters have got almost as uncomfortable with the pure intellectuality of the Ancients. I don't know quite what to make of that, though.

[countess7]

word.

[thingswithwings]

yes, absolutely - I really do think that's why I like him on his knees, too, in fic. It's a way of taking the hot sexualization out of the context of noncon and putting it into a context of desire - which is why, I think, D/s fics featuring John as the s are most likely to be from his POV, or to focus (for example) on his masochism rather than his partner's sadism. I agree completely - I want to, if nothing else, complicate the sexual power dynamics as they're presented on the show, to at least make John feel conflicted about them

[bitter_crimson]

A very interesting reading of the physical vs. intellectual dynamic. I think it's very clear that these are exemplified in the show in the Wraith and Ancients. I also think it's interesting, though, that as the show has gone on, we've seen a more and more flawed view of the Ancients, and a slightly more "human" view of the Wraith (though on the whole, the former are still definitely "good guys," and the latter "bad guys

[erda_3]

What is not subtle to us is different from what is not subtle to TPTB. I think we're in a little bubble here where we all take this understanding for granted. Out there in the big world I find it quite possible that the writers have no idea about the implications of what they are doing.

[bitter_crimson]

True, the frame of reference for a member of fandom may be very different from that of TPTB. However, I still personally believe that putting the white male hero on his knees in front of villains all the time is being done with intent. It seems like it is intended to be "shocking," exciting, and frightening for the viewer to see John put in such a subservient position. But on the other hand, it's always safe, because the average viewer expects that John is going to beat the bad guys and returned to his usual position of power by the end of the episodes. *shrugs* It doesn't seem like a random occurrence to me, but something done deliberately. The hand-in-head, &c, however, is indeed a bit more subtle and perhaps not intentionally meant to imply what we take it to imply.

[erda_3]

Yes, I agree it's done with intent. I just also think a lot of this is subconscious on the part of the writers. Why they think they're doing it and why they're really doing it could be worlds apart.

It's all good to me either way.

[fanaddict]

I think that you should also count how many times he goes on suicide missions. The reason I say that is that I get the impression TPTB feel like with Sheppard they have to up the ante on viewers' concern for his well being. So suicidal missions are one way, and sexualized violence is another. After all, nothing scares [male] sci fi fans like the subtextual idea that their hero could be raped. What's interesting is that the first is a decision Sheppard explicitly makes to ride the bomb in or whatever, and the second is done to him. John Sheppard does it both ways

[amberlynne]

I think the writers both love and hate Sheppard. They give him all the dorky qualities they like about themselves but he's still the incredibly attractive, strong guy that they've always been envious of. So they get to make him both heroic for being like them and punish him for the other stuff at the same time.

Or they all have really fucked up sexual issues.

Actually, it's probably both. I try not to think about it too much because he really is very pretty when tied up on his knees.

[gaffsie]

So they get to make him both heroic for being like them and punish him for the other stuff at the same time.

I like that theory. It does make a twisted amount of sense, especially when coupled with their obviously fucked up sexual issues.

[jolielaide]

You know, I was wondering about this as well. I mean, I think there's *so* much going on here that there are probably multiple forces at work, on multiple levels, some more intentional on the part of the show creators than others.

But-- I do wonder if some of it is rooted in TBTP's attraction/repulsion for Sheppard, in their need to punish, humiliate, or endanger him because of his (dangerous, to them?) attractiveness...Whatever is behind it, it's definitely a bit creepy, and I am so glad that fandom has rehabilitated this weird thing the show gives us and reappropriates it, gives Sheppard some agency and makes it about *his* desire.

thingswithwings, I am blown away by your calculations: John Sheppard is on his knees over 17% of the time, on this show. (I sort of wonder what Flan makes of it, you know, getting the script, reading through, and-- oh, yep, uh huh, I'm going down. Again. WTF.)