Free will is doing whatever the fuck you want: Winchesters and eschatology
Warning. No one has read this but me, and the long-suffering kaseido nodded in all of the right places. It's long, but hopefully more comprehensible than not.
Mmmm... nothing like Winchesterian theology to make my Sunday. Now off to write some PORN.
( abandon hope all ye who enter here, or something )
Mmmm... nothing like Winchesterian theology to make my Sunday. Now off to write some PORN.
( abandon hope all ye who enter here, or something )
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Determinism is an extreme form of causation with a more spiritual implication. Ie, that once Sam and Dean started on this path it was inecitable that they would be chased and that the chasing would lead to ... X eschaton.
The issue of free will is rather one of whether Sam and Dean had any choice to do the things that caused the FBI to come after them. And what they can do about it.
It's, um...tangled? *g* It's possible that all those things are determined, and that we can't really know for sure. There are also levels of determinism, in which the eschaton is determined but that paths are not.
*hands* That's why I'm saying all we can really know is that Sam and Dean appear to have moral agency and that that moral agency causes issues for the YED. ;)
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This is a wonderful exploration of these issues and ideas. A big yes to you recognising Dean as having strong faith.
And I lveo how you've drawn out the battle between determinism adn fere will. Dean keeps saying "we always have choices", and "no one can make you do things", while Sam is all "its my destiny"
*smishes your thinky brain*
Would you link to this over at spn_heavymeta?
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And, yes, I will and I did! Thanks for the tip. :) Tell Kassie, as well, perhaps?
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*is boggled*
see...this is why i leave the smart stuff to you!
and the meta-ing...
and the porn....
and well...yea. that's why i leave everything to you!
*gives you cake*
pee.ess you'll have to wait until i'm a wee bit more apt to respond coherently... i'm stuck in bed and am hopped up on meds...ugh
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...i think that might help loads, yes....
*snuggles into you* you treat me so well
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I'm not quite sure what bearing that has on. Um. Anything, actually, but it doesn't quite fit in with the rest of your very good points.
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This could be a lie, and Dean doesn't actually feel this way, but it seems to me that the demon wanted to upset Dean to maximum effect, and therefore said it because it was true.
I think it would have the maximum effect just hearing it from Sam's mouth, even if Dean doesn't really feel that way.
And the thing is, no matter how sure you want to be about something, it's hard to be 100% about anything, just as a person. It's so hubris-y. So I see it almost as the demon playing on that tiny little scrap of doubt he knows Dean has, which he knows that Dean is feeling super guilty over.
I don't think that necessarily means Dean doesn't believe he'll be able to save Sam. I think it means that he's afraid that he won't, which is perfectly natural.
...If any of that makes any sense at all.
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I'm not sure I see hubris in Dean's assertion that he can and will save Sam. Dean's actually very humble in a cosmic respect. He thinks of himself as a supernatural fireman. A servant, rather than a lord.
But the rest of your point is well-taken, and echoes what I said below. Now, off to respond to you, which may take more brains than I have online at the mo. *g*
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I think we've been given enough to indicate that Sam has always believed this. He says, "why would I be given these visions if I couldn't do something?"
BUT. He says that very early on. And as we go later, he's getting the visions too late. He can't stop it from happening. And he begins to doubt. To think that yes he was meant to do something, but that perhaps that was only meant to up his sense of desperation later. To help push him toward becoming a killer.
Now, the fact that he's feeling pushed could cut both ways. Either it could be that he feels he's being herded and having his choices stripped away but that he does actually have choices, or that he's starting to lose faith that he actually has any choices ( ... )
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Sam sees what's happening around them as an attempt to put chinks in his psyarmor. And the fact that he was possessed shows he has a big gaping one. Me? I think that's a hole in Sam's faith. I think Sam's starting to doubt he can fight this. Whether that's because he believes it's destiny or simply fears he's not strong enough is a question for Sam. *g*
I don't think, in any event, that Sam would accept a defense that said "hey I expected that". Sam is far too severe on himself to ever allow that possibility. Sam will feel guilty from now until his last breath for everything Sam ever did wrong. He might say it to let Dean off the hook, even if he doesn't believe it. Dean doesn't either, though. And he'll settle for nothing less than perfection as pertains to Sam ( ... )
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Well. Consdering that I'm Jewish... *g* I have a lot of background in Christian theology because I'm a medievalist, but I'd say read the whole bible sometime. It's a fascinating experience.
I think the thing to understand here is that regardless of how a non-Christian would relate to it, there are definite Christian parallels being drawn, and despite the fact that I think the magical systems at work in Supernatural are pantheistc syncretistic, Sam and Dean were raised within a Christian tradition, whether or not John believes in a Christian god. So when they express their own experiences - the desire for redemption, etc, then they are in fact shaping those from within a Christian worldview ( ... )
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