Free will is doing whatever the fuck you want: Winchesters and eschatology

[technosage]

Warning. No one has read this but me, and the long-suffering kaseido nodded in all of the right places. It's long, but hopefully more comprehensible than not.

Mmmm... nothing like Winchesterian theology to make my Sunday. Now off to write some PORN.

Comments

Re: I really hope this is at least kind of coherent. I had so much FUN with this!

[technosage]

Sam sees what's happening around them as an attempt to put chinks in his psyarmor. And the fact that he was possessed shows he has a big gaping one. Me? I think that's a hole in Sam's faith. I think Sam's starting to doubt he can fight this. Whether that's because he believes it's destiny or simply fears he's not strong enough is a question for Sam. *g*

I don't think, in any event, that Sam would accept a defense that said "hey I expected that". Sam is far too severe on himself to ever allow that possibility. Sam will feel guilty from now until his last breath for everything Sam ever did wrong. He might say it to let Dean off the hook, even if he doesn't believe it. Dean doesn't either, though. And he'll settle for nothing less than perfection as pertains to Sam.

Also, don't rag on Sam's hair. I love it. :P And, I'm not sure where you see Sam's wibbly bullshit. Elaborate? Because I think if you look at it from Sam's perspective, he's under an awful lot of pressure and holding up a shitton better than most of us would under the circumstances.

I suppose it's only fair to warn you that while I'm very BiBro, you're going to meet with a lot of resistance if you try to demonize Sam. I'm all ABSOLUTELY fine with disagreement, but you should definitely know that picking on Sam will make me argue harder. *g*

So. Hm. I disagree, in summary. *g*

...more on the other stuff, next comment...

Re: I really hope this is at least kind of coherent. I had so much FUN with this!

[technosage]

That would actually make for an interesting meta piece all by itself, actually: how the non-Christian, completely ignorant of 99% of all things Christ, relates to and interprets various figures with Christian parallels-- not just Christ himself, but the saints, angels, disciples, etc.

Well. Consdering that I'm Jewish... *g* I have a lot of background in Christian theology because I'm a medievalist, but I'd say read the whole bible sometime. It's a fascinating experience.

I think the thing to understand here is that regardless of how a non-Christian would relate to it, there are definite Christian parallels being drawn, and despite the fact that I think the magical systems at work in Supernatural are pantheistc syncretistic, Sam and Dean were raised within a Christian tradition, whether or not John believes in a Christian god. So when they express their own experiences - the desire for redemption, etc, then they are in fact shaping those from within a Christian worldview.

I don't think that means there are no Jewish parallels. Since, of course, there are messianic figures all throughout the Torah, and the various prophets speak of the mashiach at some length. All I'm saying is that we're given a Christian context to work from as a starting point, y'know?

Which doesn't mean a Jewish, Hindu, Muslim, Zoroastrian, Zen perspective wouldn't be interesting or useful. It would be. Fascinating. :)

I think John believed in free will for people but not for supernatural entities, probably because of his limited experiences with them. If his first introduction to the supernatural had been befriending Casper the Friendly Ghost, I'm sure he would've believed differently. But the first encounter was the YED, so I think that he thought that all supernatural entities were evil, like the YED. And that's the belief he passed on to the boys.

I'm not sure that I take your meaning here. John probably didn't believe that vampires could choose not to be vampires, otoh, we really don't know. He didn't kill the vampire woman initially, that wasn't his plan. His plan was to steal the Colt. And he knew that vampires mated for life. It seems possible that John might well have known vampires could survive without human blood, though he probably wouldn't have believed that a vampire would choose to do that.

I think John likely believed that any entity that was once human has free will. How strong the pull of that entity's supernatural biology would be over the will to be good would depend on whether that entity had been good in life. Demons represent a different case, as, to the best of our knowledge, demons have never been human.

I don't think we can speculate too far about what John would've thought about Lenore, for example. However, I believe that Sam is much more like John than Dean is, and John survived as a solo hunter by using his brain and his judgment. I have meta coming up about Sam as John, and I think, therefore it's likely that John might've come to the same conclusion about Lenore as Sam. But we just don't know, so it's all handwavery.

I don't mean to imply that Dean is in any way dumb or deficient for not having believed what Sam believed. Frankly, I think importing our own Buffy-based worldview that vampires can be good into Supernaturalverse is dangerous. And in fact, despite the presence of Amber Benson to make us think that direction (thanks Eric! *G*), Sam's decision to trust Lenore is quite quite dangerous. It was a big risk, but one that paid off.

Dean's position is quite justified. It's just that WE know that we don't want Dean to be Gordon. Dean doesn't have that perspective.

Am I making any sense at all?

Re: I really hope this is at least kind of coherent. I had so much FUN with this!

[hebrew_hernia]

Oh, dude, you > me to the max. Sometimes I just don't GET IT, on a really fundamental level. Sam's AFRAIIIIID! I mean, I think I was kindasorta ALMOST getting at that, but. That just makes so much more sense. D'oh.

In fact, can I retract what I said and just agree with what you said about everything? You clearly pwn forever.

(Also, re: the vampires, I know nothing about Buffy. I've literally watched three episodes of Angel and two of those were muted while I listened to music, and that is it. I know the basic vampire-with-a-soul thing, but that's about it.

Re: I really hope this is at least kind of coherent. I had so much FUN with this!

[technosage]

I dunno. I don't think I'm letting you take it back. Cuz even if you think I'm right now, which you needn't, I wouldn't have said any of it if you hadn't said what you did, and therefore, deterministically speaking you had to say it or else, non. *g* You were predestined to say it!

Also, I think you were getting at Sam being afraid. I just elaborated and pushed that a different direction. :P

As for Buffy-based worldviews, *nods* I think it's a bit like Christianity. It filters into the media-watching fannish consciousness that Spike who was a vampire became part of Buffy's "family", one of the Scoobies. And that Angel who is a vampire, fought his nature to be good.

But, I don't think we even need that for the idea of overcoming biological destiny to be a part of our mindset. In fact, Joss's vision of Angelus and Spike is informed by the liberal view of nurture v. nature, and rehabilitation of criminals etc. While I'm inclined to agree with Joss, and Sam, I still think it's a risky way of thinking. Yeah?

Re: I really hope this is at least kind of coherent. I had so much FUN with this!

[hebrew_hernia]

Yeah, it is.

Also, you called them Scoobies? That's kind of adorable.