Alternatives to ' just butting out'

[green_man_2010]

It isn't just the no fly zone or military intervention that provokes international outrage - I have had a few people tell me recently that there is no way that the evils of colonialism can be fixed by white people, or people from the USA and Europe getting involved. our involvement can only make it worse, they argue

Comments

[okmewriting]

+1

[green_man_2010]

I have bposted a lot about Libya lately, but Libya is a relatively small problem , whereas Environmental concerns are going to hit all all in the next couple of decades when Libya is all forgotten.

[gunslnger]

When someone says "we should just butt out", the "we" is referring to "our government", not "all people in our country".

[green_man_2010]

That is something I actually agree with.
In the UK, what the government wants and what the people wants are not the same things.

[il_mio_gufo]

It isn't just the no fly zone or military intervention that provokes international outrage - I have had a few people tell me recently that there is no way that the evils of colonialism can be fixed by white people, or people from the USA and Europe getting involved. our involvement can only make it worse, they argue.

got a few marine and/or army friends [US military]. i've heard comments that the middle-eastern folk are sort of prejudice toward our caucasian-looking soldiers, but more cool with the asian, black, & hispanic US soldiers. go figure :/

[fizzyland]

That's because they know from long experience that the white devil can't be trusted.

[underlankers]

^Wot 'e said. And it ain't just the USA with that. Between them the British and the French seemed to go out of their way to show that.

[il_mio_gufo]

i could be misinformed though, you never know. although, the people i've heard these things from are not the type to bull$@!* and just make things up u know.

to me, it's sad, because it probably makes the job 10x harder to do over there. or so i would think.

[meus_ovatio]

Of course, maybe other people may have ideas of their own on how we can help people in developing countries.
Well, you can quit calling them "developing countries" for one. We aren't the doctor, they don't need our medicine, and quite frankly, just because they're poor doesn't mean they want our corrupt system of capitalism.

[green_man_2010]

Then what else do you propose instead?
The Third World? 'Under developed coutries'?
the Soviet bloc isn't there any longer. i know what ppl mena when they write about ' the third world' in books back in the 70s, but it is very dated , you know.
And 'under developed countries' does imply a stasis that does not exist.
These countries are developing their economies and ifrastructure. Now, if you can come up with a better description that the one I see being used by everyone from the Guardian to the Sunday times, great - I will use yrs instead. Sadly, you want to take something down and not put anything back in its place.

A big failing of left wingers that goes beyond semantics, lemme tell ya.

We aren't the doctor, they don't need our medicine, and quite frankly, just because they're poor doesn't mean they want our corrupt system of capitalism. In a literal sense, western modes of treatmen like vaccines and ORT are making inroads into the Infant Mortality Rate and the Under 5 Death rates in many developing countries

[meus_ovatio]

Then what else do you propose instead?
The Third World? 'Under developed coutries'?
"Other countries" seems to suffice just fine.

These countries are developing their economies and ifrastructure. Now, if you can come up with a better description that the one I see being used by everyone from the Guardian to the Sunday times, great - I will use yrs instead. Sadly, you want to take something down and not put anything back in its place.
Yeah, I know, what are we supposed to call poor black people? Black people? We're just supposed to call them black people? How terrible! How about we call them "developing peoples".

How exactly is Fair Trade harming the tea and coffee growers in Kenya or Columbia?
And again , what alternatives do you suggest?I suggest we view the world through a map defined by capital power and realize that we can effect change far more effectively by effecting change within ourselves and our structures... those structures which produce unsustainable farming for instance, in those countries driven by meeting insatiable

[a_new_machine]

Yeah, the whole term "developing"/Third World/underdeveloped is problematic. It's a minor thing, but it implies that development is a one-way track that everyone can achieve, and that they are somehow more primitive.

I had a prof in college who prefered "Global South," but that's not even accurate - nobody thinks North Korea or Moldova are terribly well-off nations.

Personally, I'm OK with "poorer nations."

But overall this is a pretty minor point.

[lai_choi_san]

About 3), have you seen "Let's make money" by Erwin Wagenhofer ? It shows very well the mechanisms with which the world of finance "squeezes" (for lack of a better word) Africa.

an end to EU and US Farming Subsidies
I agree, provided that the European farmers are paid for what they produce which is not the case today (I don't know for US).

[green_man_2010]

the idea of ' world finance' invokes ideas of the IMF and global corporations, which don't really help the poor and are more about helping those already rich.

My model is more along the lines of the Grameen bank, micro finance, workers co operatives, as well as Trade Justice and the Fair Trade Movement.

I will go check your link and see what comes up.

having seen it, I get that we are both on the same page-

Investment to get ' economic growth' is not the way forward, and we cannot get an ever increasing ' economic growth ' to happen anyway. We need to move towards sustainability in the economy and privide for people , and not for corporate interests.

In terms of subsidies, the EU farmers are being paid to produce a surplus of some commodities on the world market. it is wasteful and also prone to corruption.

Far better to abolish subsidies altogether and move towards a fair trade model, i would say . if it can work for coffee farmers in columbia and kenya, why not olive growers or sheep farmers in Europe?

[il_mio_gufo]

Fair Trade ~ a tricky tricky topic. that's double tricky. i'm yet to find a really clean definition of this concept.

[gunslnger]

Yeah, fair trading is obviously good, but Fair Trade is not obviously fair trading.