Alternatives to ' just butting out'

[green_man_2010]

It isn't just the no fly zone or military intervention that provokes international outrage - I have had a few people tell me recently that there is no way that the evils of colonialism can be fixed by white people, or people from the USA and Europe getting involved. our involvement can only make it worse, they argue

Comments

[meus_ovatio]

Then what else do you propose instead?
The Third World? 'Under developed coutries'?
"Other countries" seems to suffice just fine.

These countries are developing their economies and ifrastructure. Now, if you can come up with a better description that the one I see being used by everyone from the Guardian to the Sunday times, great - I will use yrs instead. Sadly, you want to take something down and not put anything back in its place.
Yeah, I know, what are we supposed to call poor black people? Black people? We're just supposed to call them black people? How terrible! How about we call them "developing peoples".

How exactly is Fair Trade harming the tea and coffee growers in Kenya or Columbia?
And again , what alternatives do you suggest?
I suggest we view the world through a map defined by capital power and realize that we can effect change far more effectively by effecting change within ourselves and our structures... those structures which produce unsustainable farming for instance, in those countries driven by meeting insatiable Western demand for rainforest wood.

[a_new_machine]

Yeah, the whole term "developing"/Third World/underdeveloped is problematic. It's a minor thing, but it implies that development is a one-way track that everyone can achieve, and that they are somehow more primitive.

I had a prof in college who prefered "Global South," but that's not even accurate - nobody thinks North Korea or Moldova are terribly well-off nations.

Personally, I'm OK with "poorer nations."

But overall this is a pretty minor point.

[green_man_2010]

Ok, 'poorer nations' it is.

[green_man_2010]

"Other countries" seems to suffice just fine.

Sorry - Australia and new Zealand are ' other countries' where I live. i don't mean them , though.

Sorry - u just lost out to 'poorer nations'.

I suggest we view the world through a map defined by capital power and realize that we can effect change far more effectively by effecting change within ourselves and our structures... those structures which produce unsustainable farming for instance, in those countries driven by meeting insatiable Western demand for rainforest wood.
Sustainable timber from managed woods is not the problem hear - i just don't buy tropical hardwood.

Are you suggesting that I don't buy tea and coffee at all? And how is that gonna help those guys in kenya and Colombia, pray? Isn't it better to buy from them on their terms than our own? If the answer is no ( and you have not given me any evidence that is is, BTW) then what else do u suggest i do - try to be practical , not theoretical here, it is late where I am .
A guy is selling tea and making enough cash to get a school built in his village on the proceeds. Gimme one good reason not to go buy his tea.

[meus_ovatio]

I have no idea about this tea thing. I haven't said anything about tea. I'm talking about changing the world by changing ourselves, and not externalizing things and treating "the world" as our clinic, and "other people" as our patients. Part of what you can do right now, before you go to bed, is to kneel and pray to the Lord Jesus Christ and ask for forgiveness, and then stop thinking about "the world" as a problem you need to "fix". Charity starts at home, and Jesus loves you.

[green_man_2010]

I have no idea about this tea thing. I haven't said anything about tea
Oh, I have. So, what is your take on the tea thing ? We Brits take our tea seriously.

Part of what you can do right now, before you go to bed, is to kneel and pray to the Lord Jesus Christ and ask for forgiveness, and then stop thinking about "the world" as a problem you need to "fix". Charity starts at home, and Jesus loves you.,/i>
Well, it is good that you bring jesus into the equation , because not a lot of people do that. i have read the NT many times, but never came across this bit about Charity beginning at home. there is a lot about caring for the poor and practicing justice in both the Ot and the new one as well, though, i notice.

To me, going into the shops and excercising love for my neighbour and not exploiting him or her is part of what jesus wants me to do, I reckon.
I mean, I know what goes on on tea plantations, and I don't want to be supporing people who make their money that way, thanks.

The good Samaritan did what needed doing ' out there', meeting a genuine need with actions , not naval gazing . And Jesus said ' go ye therefore and do likewise.

Yup , we have to think about the consequences of our actions when we shop, and learn about the world we live in , but this is also part of the deal, i think.

[meus_ovatio]

No no no, see, you're running to third base before touching first and second (hopefully a Brit can understand this analogy, however I will rely upon the Spirit to translate). What you want is a comfortable little idea like, "Oh I'm buying me tea, and isn't it so nice and wonderful that my natural lifestyle just so happens to match up with fixing the world.

This is false, and you are wrong. You want change without change. You want to make change a handmaiden of the status quo. You want to change the store you go to on the same street, or buy the same things from a different vendor, or any other number of wonderfully mercantile, bourgeois, comfortable little things that make you feel good on the inside, because you happen to be drinking tea anyway.

You ask impossible questions for impossible ends. You are citizen and subject of the United Kingdom. Worry about the United Kingdom, for the United Kingdom is as sick as the Libyans or the Hindu or the Mohhamedan. You are no physician, you have no medicine, and nothing to change other than yourself.

Repent ye therefore of thy pride, walk with the Lord, and give your money to meus_ovatio.

[green_man_2010]

Worry about the United Kingdom, for the United Kingdom is as sick as the Libyans or the Hindu or the Mohhamedan. You are no physician, you have no medicine, and nothing to change other than yourself.

On this, i can agree. However, i don't suppose there is any point discussing the povery gap here because there is nothing you can do about it, so I will talk that over with my fellow brits on another forum.
But who says that having done what I can for the Uk, that I can't go and do something for someone else in the world while I am at it?

[meus_ovatio]

But who says that having done what I can for the Uk, that I can't go and do something for someone else in the world while I am at it?

Lord forgive me for my heated words, but your servant has run up against a brick-wall.

WHY DO YOU STILL THINK IT IS ABOUT HELPING OTHERS?! You are a deaf man. You have no medicine. You are not a physician. You have nothing to offer. You've already set up the opera, you style yourself the hero, and you've gone off into lala-headed bullshit.

I said repent. R-E-P-E-N-T. English, do you speak it?!

lol j/k

[green_man_2010]

WHY DO YOU STILL THINK IT IS ABOUT HELPING OTHERS?!
Because that is how I read the story of the Good Samaritan.
And in another passage, Jesus says "Come and inherit the kingdom of my Father, for when I was hungry you fed me, when I was sick, you came to me - and the disciples said "When did we see you sick or hungry, Lord and help you?"

And He said unto them "to the extent that you did it unto theleast one of these my brother. you did it unto me."

I dunno, but i see this as a call to Social Acivism , but I give you leave under Romans !$ to draw your own concluions on this.
Just bear in mind that , no - I don't have the answr , or the medicne, but Jesus says that He is 'the light of the world', and that His followers are to be salt and light themselves.

[allhatnocattle]

Yes, I think what meus_ovatio is saying is that we leave well enough alone.

500years ago Portuguese, Spanish, Dutch, British and French exploiters/explorers came to this continent and introduced us to the marvels of European culture. They introduced us to guns, buttons, bells, silk, pasta, Jesus and the almighty wheel. The wheel was supposed to bring us out of the dark ages and into the 16th century. But are we really better for it?

If the great explorers had sense of meus_ovatio and left us well enough alone it would be a very different world indeed. We were not sick. Europeans did not have a cure to save us. If they did it certainly wasn't Jesus, and it probably wasn't the wheel.