A lot. And I'm sure I only thought up the basics. Probably not even all of them.
I have to admit, i'm hard pressed to forgive certain things and certain people. I'm bad about "once it's been broken, it can't be brought back."
Are the two synonymous? Are they mutually exclusive? I don't know. I've heard that therapists tell their patients to forgive people who abused them as children, for example, for the patient's own good, but I can't imagine they'd say that they should let that potentially dangerous adult back into their life. So at least one camp out there must believe that you can forgive without bringing anything back. But I don't understand it--maybe I should do a bit of research.
many a relationships have ended, by me, because of this. I'm a strange creature. I'm loyal and caring, and loving until you do something that hurts me, and then, then all I can think is, "Why did they do this to me? What did I do wrong?" and it makes ME attack MYSELF, which isn't good.No. It's not. Well...there's
( ... )
Are the two synonymous? Are they mutually exclusive? I don't know. I've heard that therapists tell their patients to forgive people who abused them as children, for example, for the patient's own good, but I can't imagine they'd say that they should let that potentially dangerous adult back into their life. So at least one camp out there must believe that you can forgive without bringing anything back. But I don't understand it--maybe I should do a bit of research.
My only thought to this is, if the person who's done you wrong is the one being forgiven, most of the time they will take an inch and run a mile. Sometimes even going back to that which you were forgiving, which comes to "you can't change a cheetah's spots" or whatever that phrase is. Not many people DO change, and I guess I see forgiveness as a sign of weakness. Call me hard hearted, but as soon as I forgive someone, I see that as an opening for them to come back in a do exactly what they did before.
Yes. That is a given. The only thing I can offer--and it feels pretty
( ... )
My only thought to this is, if the person who's done you wrong is the one being forgiven, most of the time they will take an inch and run a mile.
In your opinion, does forgiveness always include forgetfulness? Or would it be possible to forgive someone and yet never trust them again? I think that's what the therapists are going for, but I can't imagine how that works.
Sometimes even going back to that which you were forgiving, which comes to "you can't change a cheetah's spots" or whatever that phrase is. Not many people DO change, and I guess I see forgiveness as a sign of weakness. Call me hard hearted, but as soon as I forgive someone, I see that as an opening for them to come back in a do exactly what they did before.
And for that matter, does not forgiving them mean that they would then change? I mean, if you can't change a cheetah's spots, then a cheetah's a cheetah whether you forgive him or not, you know?
Once I stopped feeling "wounded", and started thinking straight, I DID pull the good out, and I did realize I could
( ... )
Good thoughts here... I'm sure I've done the "eye for an eye" thing in the past, and I know it's been a defense mechanism for me. I've been betrayed, lied to, taken advantage, etc too many times. I'm too nice of a person and once someone realizes they can use that to their advantage, I get taken advantage of
( ... )
Good thoughts here... I'm sure I've done the "eye for an eye" thing in the past, and I know it's been a defense mechanism for me. I've been betrayed, lied to, taken advantage, etc too many times. I'm too nice of a person and once someone realizes they can use that to their advantage, I get taken advantage of.
While I definitely get where you're coming from, practically speaking, what does an "eye for an eye" accomplish? You've taught your enemies a lesson--for your benefit? Or theirs? Wouldn't you only benefit if you then kept them around thereafter? At most, wouldn't you be served better if you just moved on, and thus denied them the opportunity to betray/lie to/take advantage of you again?
Years ago, the "eye for an eye" was my way of feeling better.
Did it work? I'm not being rhetorical, here, I'm genuinely curious.
Now, I just am really careful with who I let close, and if someone breaks trust with me, they just get cut out, and I go on with my life. Granted, the desire to do something completely mean and seek revenge
( ... )
questions 1 and 3: Because "eye for an eye" doesn't really accomplish much. And also in retrospect, it seems more of a juvenile thing to do. Like it makes me imagine the nasal voice of a 5 year old going "well julie broke my truck so i'm gonna break her dolly!" or something like that. Most of this was done in grade school/high school. Once I got to college I started to change my methods. I changed to something that's less immature sounding in my head, and even though i say I "ignore" someone, I still leave myself open to hear what they have to say. I can still keep my own counsel, but at the same time, if someone is genuinely sorry for what they did, they can come back and approach me and we can go from there.
Did it work? I'm not being rhetorical, here, I'm genuinely curious.
While the plotting of the "vengance" felt good, it rarely worked the way I wanted to, and it tended to cause more issues than it was worth.
I agree it's probably naive to think it can go back to the way things were as if nothing ever happened...but if you'
( ... )
questions 1 and 3: Because "eye for an eye" doesn't really accomplish much. And also in retrospect, it seems more of a juvenile thing to do. Like it makes me imagine the nasal voice of a 5 year old going "well julie broke my truck so i'm gonna break her dolly!" or something like that.
Mmm. Very true.
Most of this was done in grade school/high school. Once I got to college I started to change my methods. I changed to something that's less immature sounding in my head, and even though i say I "ignore" someone, I still leave myself open to hear what they have to say. I can still keep my own counsel, but at the same time, if someone is genuinely sorry for what they did, they can come back and approach me and we can go from there.
That sounds wonderful, actually.
While the plotting of the "vengance" felt good, it rarely worked the way I wanted to, and it tended to cause more issues than it was worth.
Yeah. I imagine that's pretty common.
I'm completely with you on this. For friends that I've had fights with in the past, this is
( ... )
If you've truly forgotten, wouldn't you automatically trust again? Because if you're suspicious, you must be remembering something that makes you suspicious, you know what I mean?
I wish I could say that I was a good enough person to "forgive and forget", but I'm not. I am an angry person. When I care about someone, I do it with all my heart. The unfortunately side effect is that when I feel I've been "wronged", I get very angry. I'm also not someone who is very good at letting go. Even when I was younger, it was hard for me to say goodbye. Romantic relationships, friendships. Whatever. And it doesn't help that my brain is like a broken record player that, once it finds a grove, it continues to skip in that grove until I mentally pick the needle up and move it elsewhere (and sometimes it just slide right back there...)
I feel bad, because I try to be a good person, and yet... time and time again... I fail.
I wish I could say that I was a good enough person to "forgive and forget", but I'm not. I am an angry person. When I care about someone, I do it with all my heart. The unfortunately side effect is that when I feel I've been "wronged", I get very angry.
It is a double-edged sword. For what it's worth, although for the sake of your stomach I wish you didn't get hurt so much, *I'd* rather have Passionate Patti than a more Placid Patti that didn't care quite so much.
I'm also not someone who is very good at letting go. Even when I was younger, it was hard for me to say goodbye. Romantic relationships, friendships. Whatever.
I'm better at letting go of my own negative emotions than I am about giving up on someone that I probably should.
And it doesn't help that my brain is like a broken record player that, once it finds a grove, it continues to skip in that grove until I mentally pick the needle up and move it elsewhere (and sometimes it just slide right back there...)
Oh God, do I know that exact physical feeling by heart. But to
( ... )
Therein lies the crux. I will always be passionate, but I think there has to be a way to be... well, if not more forgiving, then more, "C'est la vie" about it. Because, like it or not, you meet good and bad people both in life. It's up to me on how I react to things.
I'm better at letting go of my own negative emotions than I am about giving up on someone that I probably should.
I'm the reverse - now. I've had a couple relationships where I literally had to forcably make myself leave, because it was going nowhere and I knew it and I'd already wasted *years* of my life (not overestimating, either). It was hard, but I did it. The negative emotions attached? That took a bit longer to let go of.
you know why you have to learn how to move it, don't you?
Yup. And for what it's worth, I have to give myself credit - I'm a LOT better than I used to be. I'm at the point where I can see that I'm stuck in that negative rut, and can mentally bitchslap myself out of it. That, for me, is progress.
Therein lies the crux. I will always be passionate, but I think there has to be a way to be... well, if not more forgiving, then more, "C'est la vie" about it. Because, like it or not, you meet good and bad people both in life. It's up to me on how I react to things.
True. I can be a little more "C'est la vie" because I know that, whether I want to or not, the intensity of my feelings are going to fade, and my memory of ANY event is going to fade too, so...I'd actually have to work harder at remembering than forgetting. =/
I'm the reverse - now. I've had a couple relationships where I literally had to forcably make myself leave, because it was going nowhere and I knew it and I'd already wasted *years* of my life (not overestimating, either). It was hard, but I did it. The negative emotions attached? That took a bit longer to let go of.Try not to think of them as a waste. Frisco gave me the best advice about that ever when he told me that "Just because a love affair ended, doesn't mean it 'failed'." I thought about that a lot
( ... )
Amen to that. I'm going to have to think about this for a bit. Lots of good thoughts here.
Forgiveness, revenge... I hate dwelling. Sometimes I can't help it and I wish I could just learn to let things slide a little more easily. Being a mere mortal kind of blows sometimes. :\ Is there an upgrade available? *looks around*
Amen to that. I'm going to have to think about this for a bit. Lots of good thoughts here.
Thank you. I don't think I have even half the answer here, so I'm sure you'll come up with a lot more on your own.
Forgiveness, revenge... I hate dwelling. Sometimes I can't help it and I wish I could just learn to let things slide a little more easily. Being a mere mortal kind of blows sometimes. :\ Is there an upgrade available? *looks around*
I know you were sort of joking, but...you know, I really think there is. We're so used to equating "human" with "flawed", and I get why, and I suppose if you're a Christian you believe that only the angels and the saints can reach perfection, but really, there's no reason not to try. I think it is possible to learn desirable traits. I just, you know, don't necessarily know how. =/
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A lot. And I'm sure I only thought up the basics. Probably not even all of them.
I have to admit, i'm hard pressed to forgive certain things and certain people. I'm bad about "once it's been broken, it can't be brought back."
Are the two synonymous? Are they mutually exclusive? I don't know. I've heard that therapists tell their patients to forgive people who abused them as children, for example, for the patient's own good, but I can't imagine they'd say that they should let that potentially dangerous adult back into their life. So at least one camp out there must believe that you can forgive without bringing anything back. But I don't understand it--maybe I should do a bit of research.
many a relationships have ended, by me, because of this. I'm a strange creature. I'm loyal and caring, and loving until you do something that hurts me, and then, then all I can think is, "Why did they do this to me? What did I do wrong?" and it makes ME attack MYSELF, which isn't good.No. It's not. Well...there's ( ... )
Reply
My only thought to this is, if the person who's done you wrong is the one being forgiven, most of the time they will take an inch and run a mile. Sometimes even going back to that which you were forgiving, which comes to "you can't change a cheetah's spots" or whatever that phrase is. Not many people DO change, and I guess I see forgiveness as a sign of weakness. Call me hard hearted, but as soon as I forgive someone, I see that as an opening for them to come back in a do exactly what they did before.
Yes. That is a given. The only thing I can offer--and it feels pretty ( ... )
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In your opinion, does forgiveness always include forgetfulness? Or would it be possible to forgive someone and yet never trust them again? I think that's what the therapists are going for, but I can't imagine how that works.
Sometimes even going back to that which you were forgiving, which comes to "you can't change a cheetah's spots" or whatever that phrase is. Not many people DO change, and I guess I see forgiveness as a sign of weakness. Call me hard hearted, but as soon as I forgive someone, I see that as an opening for them to come back in a do exactly what they did before.
And for that matter, does not forgiving them mean that they would then change? I mean, if you can't change a cheetah's spots, then a cheetah's a cheetah whether you forgive him or not, you know?
Once I stopped feeling "wounded", and started thinking straight, I DID pull the good out, and I did realize I could ( ... )
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While I definitely get where you're coming from, practically speaking, what does an "eye for an eye" accomplish? You've taught your enemies a lesson--for your benefit? Or theirs? Wouldn't you only benefit if you then kept them around thereafter? At most, wouldn't you be served better if you just moved on, and thus denied them the opportunity to betray/lie to/take advantage of you again?
Years ago, the "eye for an eye" was my way of feeling better.
Did it work? I'm not being rhetorical, here, I'm genuinely curious.
Now, I just am really careful with who I let close, and if someone breaks trust with me, they just get cut out, and I go on with my life. Granted, the desire to do something completely mean and seek revenge ( ... )
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"ignore" someone, I still leave myself open to hear what they have to say. I can still keep my own counsel, but at the same time, if someone is genuinely sorry for what they did, they can come back and approach me and we can go from there.
Did it work? I'm not being rhetorical, here, I'm genuinely curious.
While the plotting of the "vengance" felt good, it rarely worked the way I wanted to, and it tended to cause more issues than it was worth.
I agree it's probably naive to think it can go back to the way things were as if nothing ever happened...but if you' ( ... )
Reply
Mmm. Very true.
Most of this was done in grade school/high school. Once I got to college I started to change my methods. I changed to something that's less immature sounding in my head, and even though i say I "ignore" someone, I still leave myself open to hear what they have to say. I can still keep my own counsel, but at the same time, if someone is genuinely sorry for what they did, they can come back and approach me and we can go from there.
That sounds wonderful, actually.
While the plotting of the "vengance" felt good, it rarely worked the way I wanted to, and it tended to cause more issues than it was worth.
Yeah. I imagine that's pretty common.
I'm completely with you on this. For friends that I've had fights with in the past, this is ( ... )
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This is true. Putting morality to the side for the moment, it's, if nothing else, impractical.
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I feel bad, because I try to be a good person, and yet... time and time again... I fail.
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It is a double-edged sword. For what it's worth, although for the sake of your stomach I wish you didn't get hurt so much, *I'd* rather have Passionate Patti than a more Placid Patti that didn't care quite so much.
I'm also not someone who is very good at letting go. Even when I was younger, it was hard for me to say goodbye. Romantic relationships, friendships. Whatever.
I'm better at letting go of my own negative emotions than I am about giving up on someone that I probably should.
And it doesn't help that my brain is like a broken record player that, once it finds a grove, it continues to skip in that grove until I mentally pick the needle up and move it elsewhere (and sometimes it just slide right back there...)
Oh God, do I know that exact physical feeling by heart. But to ( ... )
Reply
Therein lies the crux. I will always be passionate, but I think there has to be a way to be... well, if not more forgiving, then more, "C'est la vie" about it. Because, like it or not, you meet good and bad people both in life. It's up to me on how I react to things.
I'm better at letting go of my own negative emotions than I am about giving up on someone that I probably should.
I'm the reverse - now. I've had a couple relationships where I literally had to forcably make myself leave, because it was going nowhere and I knew it and I'd already wasted *years* of my life (not overestimating, either). It was hard, but I did it. The negative emotions attached? That took a bit longer to let go of.
you know why you have to learn how to move it, don't you?
Yup. And for what it's worth, I have to give myself credit - I'm a LOT better than I used to be. I'm at the point where I can see that I'm stuck in that negative rut, and can mentally bitchslap myself out of it. That, for me, is progress.
Success is ( ... )
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True. I can be a little more "C'est la vie" because I know that, whether I want to or not, the intensity of my feelings are going to fade, and my memory of ANY event is going to fade too, so...I'd actually have to work harder at remembering than forgetting. =/
I'm the reverse - now. I've had a couple relationships where I literally had to forcably make myself leave, because it was going nowhere and I knew it and I'd already wasted *years* of my life (not overestimating, either). It was hard, but I did it. The negative emotions attached? That took a bit longer to let go of.Try not to think of them as a waste. Frisco gave me the best advice about that ever when he told me that "Just because a love affair ended, doesn't mean it 'failed'." I thought about that a lot ( ... )
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I'm going to have to think about this for a bit. Lots of good thoughts here.
Forgiveness, revenge... I hate dwelling. Sometimes I can't help it and I wish I could just learn to let things slide a little more easily. Being a mere mortal kind of blows sometimes. :\ Is there an upgrade available? *looks around*
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I'm going to have to think about this for a bit. Lots of good thoughts here.
Thank you. I don't think I have even half the answer here, so I'm sure you'll come up with a lot more on your own.
Forgiveness, revenge... I hate dwelling. Sometimes I can't help it and I wish I could just learn to let things slide a little more easily. Being a mere mortal kind of blows sometimes. :\ Is there an upgrade available? *looks around*
I know you were sort of joking, but...you know, I really think there is. We're so used to equating "human" with "flawed", and I get why, and I suppose if you're a Christian you believe that only the angels and the saints can reach perfection, but really, there's no reason not to try. I think it is possible to learn desirable traits. I just, you know, don't necessarily know how. =/
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