Are the two synonymous? Are they mutually exclusive? I don't know. I've heard that therapists tell their patients to forgive people who abused them as children, for example, for the patient's own good, but I can't imagine they'd say that they should let that potentially dangerous adult back into their life. So at least one camp out there must believe that you can forgive without bringing anything back. But I don't understand it--maybe I should do a bit of research.
My only thought to this is, if the person who's done you wrong is the one being forgiven, most of the time they will take an inch and run a mile. Sometimes even going back to that which you were forgiving, which comes to "you can't change a cheetah's spots" or whatever that phrase is. Not many people DO change, and I guess I see forgiveness as a sign of weakness. Call me hard hearted, but as soon as I forgive someone, I see that as an opening for them to come back in a do exactly what they did before.
Yes. That is a given. The only thing I can offer--and it feels pretty crappy, even as I form it in my mind--is try to take anything good away from it that you can. Learning experiences suck, but they suck so much worse if you don't actually learn anything from them. Sometimes it takes a really hard knock to the head to get you to wake up, you know?
Once I stopped feeling "wounded", and started thinking straight, I DID pull the good out, and I did realize I could have done things different, but in the end, I wouldn't have changed a thing. I weighed what he told me he'd done in the past and what he'd done to me then, and I know without a shadow of a doubt that with everything added up, given the chance, he'd do it again and I was trading that for someone who was willing to care for me unconditionally that knew me for years and...well..it was a given.
Question: why do you want them to know? Again, I'm not being rhetorical, and you don't have to answer me (especially here) because it can be pretty intensely personal, but you should figure it out for yourself if nothing else: why do you want them to know how much it hurts? What do you want to gain?
Because, I CAN be a forgiving person and in situations where I love someone with all my heart, I don't want ONE thing to break us, but I'd want them to know how much it hurt me so that they'd never do it again. I did this with my ex. I tried to reconcile, and I threatened him with divorce thinking it would affect him so much he wouldn't do it. but 6 months later there he is going back to his old routine. So, in the end I DID leave him, and the pot shot was that I ended up with his best friend. Now he's married again, and I DO hope that he learned a lot from me, if nothing else, and he won't cheat on his wife or ruin her life and their baby's life.
Potentially. But thinking outside of the box: what if there is no such thing as karma? Or, if you don't want to go quite that far, for that matter, can't anything that happens be attributed to karma, including whatever bad thing happens to you in the first place?
Even if there's no karma per se, I believe that peoples actions will come back to them in some form or fashion. If you're pure evil, it'll catch up to you. maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but I refuse to believe that there isn't some kind of something to make those people who would make others lives miserable, regret or see justice in the end.
Yes, I do believe certain things happen to me for a reason too, whether it be karma, or a learning experience.
My only thought to this is, if the person who's done you wrong is the one being forgiven, most of the time they will take an inch and run a mile.
In your opinion, does forgiveness always include forgetfulness? Or would it be possible to forgive someone and yet never trust them again? I think that's what the therapists are going for, but I can't imagine how that works.
Sometimes even going back to that which you were forgiving, which comes to "you can't change a cheetah's spots" or whatever that phrase is. Not many people DO change, and I guess I see forgiveness as a sign of weakness. Call me hard hearted, but as soon as I forgive someone, I see that as an opening for them to come back in a do exactly what they did before.
And for that matter, does not forgiving them mean that they would then change? I mean, if you can't change a cheetah's spots, then a cheetah's a cheetah whether you forgive him or not, you know?
Once I stopped feeling "wounded", and started thinking straight, I DID pull the good out, and I did realize I could have done things different, but in the end, I wouldn't have changed a thing.
That actually sounds very healthy.
I weighed what he told me he'd done in the past and what he'd done to me then, and I know without a shadow of a doubt that with everything added up, given the chance, he'd do it again and I was trading that for someone who was willing to care for me unconditionally that knew me for years and...well..it was a given.
I don't even think that's a forgiveness thing anymore, you know? At some point it comes down to just having ridiculously different values...and each of you needing to be with someone who matched you better. (That means you too.)
Because, I CAN be a forgiving person and in situations where I love someone with all my heart, I don't want ONE thing to break us, but I'd want them to know how much it hurt me so that they'd never do it again. I did this with my ex. I tried to reconcile, and I threatened him with divorce thinking it would affect him so much he wouldn't do it. but 6 months later there he is going back to his old routine. So, in the end I DID leave him, and the pot shot was that I ended up with his best friend. Now he's married again, and I DO hope that he learned a lot from me, if nothing else, and he won't cheat on his wife or ruin her life and their baby's life.
For what it's worth, I hope so, too.
Even if there's no karma per se, I believe that peoples actions will come back to them in some form or fashion. If you're pure evil, it'll catch up to you. maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but I refuse to believe that there isn't some kind of something to make those people who would make others lives miserable, regret or see justice in the end.
I'd like to think so--if you step on enough people, the law of averages dictates that eventually, one of those people is going to end up being bigger and stronger than you are, and teach you a lesson. But, that's assuming we live in a logical and rule-ordered universe, and...we don't. I think a lot of people get away with murder...and there are a lot of reasons why. I'm not TOO worried about it, there's nothing I can do about it anyway, either way, but it is something to think about.
My only thought to this is, if the person who's done you wrong is the one being forgiven, most of the time they will take an inch and run a mile. Sometimes even going back to that which you were forgiving, which comes to "you can't change a cheetah's spots" or whatever that phrase is. Not many people DO change, and I guess I see forgiveness as a sign of weakness. Call me hard hearted, but as soon as I forgive someone, I see that as an opening for them to come back in a do exactly what they did before.
Yes. That is a given. The only thing I can offer--and it feels pretty crappy, even as I form it in my mind--is try to take anything good away from it that you can. Learning experiences suck, but they suck so much worse if you don't actually learn anything from them. Sometimes it takes a really hard knock to the head to get you to wake up, you know?
Once I stopped feeling "wounded", and started thinking straight, I DID pull the good out, and I did realize I could have done things different, but in the end, I wouldn't have changed a thing. I weighed what he told me he'd done in the past and what he'd done to me then, and I know without a shadow of a doubt that with everything added up, given the chance, he'd do it again and I was trading that for someone who was willing to care for me unconditionally that knew me for years and...well..it was a given.
Question: why do you want them to know? Again, I'm not being rhetorical, and you don't have to answer me (especially here) because it can be pretty intensely personal, but you should figure it out for yourself if nothing else: why do you want them to know how much it hurts? What do you want to gain?
Because, I CAN be a forgiving person and in situations where I love someone with all my heart, I don't want ONE thing to break us, but I'd want them to know how much it hurt me so that they'd never do it again. I did this with my ex. I tried to reconcile, and I threatened him with divorce thinking it would affect him so much he wouldn't do it. but 6 months later there he is going back to his old routine. So, in the end I DID leave him, and the pot shot was that I ended up with his best friend. Now he's married again, and I DO hope that he learned a lot from me, if nothing else, and he won't cheat on his wife or ruin her life and their baby's life.
Potentially. But thinking outside of the box: what if there is no such thing as karma? Or, if you don't want to go quite that far, for that matter, can't anything that happens be attributed to karma, including whatever bad thing happens to you in the first place?
Even if there's no karma per se, I believe that peoples actions will come back to them in some form or fashion. If you're pure evil, it'll catch up to you. maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but I refuse to believe that there isn't some kind of something to make those people who would make others lives miserable, regret or see justice in the end.
Yes, I do believe certain things happen to me for a reason too, whether it be karma, or a learning experience.
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In your opinion, does forgiveness always include forgetfulness? Or would it be possible to forgive someone and yet never trust them again? I think that's what the therapists are going for, but I can't imagine how that works.
Sometimes even going back to that which you were forgiving, which comes to "you can't change a cheetah's spots" or whatever that phrase is. Not many people DO change, and I guess I see forgiveness as a sign of weakness. Call me hard hearted, but as soon as I forgive someone, I see that as an opening for them to come back in a do exactly what they did before.
And for that matter, does not forgiving them mean that they would then change? I mean, if you can't change a cheetah's spots, then a cheetah's a cheetah whether you forgive him or not, you know?
Once I stopped feeling "wounded", and started thinking straight, I DID pull the good out, and I did realize I could have done things different, but in the end, I wouldn't have changed a thing.
That actually sounds very healthy.
I weighed what he told me he'd done in the past and what he'd done to me then, and I know without a shadow of a doubt that with everything added up, given the chance, he'd do it again and I was trading that for someone who was willing to care for me unconditionally that knew me for years and...well..it was a given.
I don't even think that's a forgiveness thing anymore, you know? At some point it comes down to just having ridiculously different values...and each of you needing to be with someone who matched you better. (That means you too.)
Because, I CAN be a forgiving person and in situations where I love someone with all my heart, I don't want ONE thing to break us, but I'd want them to know how much it hurt me so that they'd never do it again. I did this with my ex. I tried to reconcile, and I threatened him with divorce thinking it would affect him so much he wouldn't do it. but 6 months later there he is going back to his old routine. So, in the end I DID leave him, and the pot shot was that I ended up with his best friend. Now he's married again, and I DO hope that he learned a lot from me, if nothing else, and he won't cheat on his wife or ruin her life and their baby's life.
For what it's worth, I hope so, too.
Even if there's no karma per se, I believe that peoples actions will come back to them in some form or fashion. If you're pure evil, it'll catch up to you. maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but I refuse to believe that there isn't some kind of something to make those people who would make others lives miserable, regret or see justice in the end.
I'd like to think so--if you step on enough people, the law of averages dictates that eventually, one of those people is going to end up being bigger and stronger than you are, and teach you a lesson. But, that's assuming we live in a logical and rule-ordered universe, and...we don't. I think a lot of people get away with murder...and there are a lot of reasons why. I'm not TOO worried about it, there's nothing I can do about it anyway, either way, but it is something to think about.
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