I think he is dependent on Dean's remaining a constant moreso than Dean is dependent on Sam remaining Sam.
Yet this season, despite both Sam and Dean being very different, it's Dean who seems to need Sam to be his old self again, rather than the other way around. For the last few episodes, especially since S&V, Dean's been really down, and while Sam seems to have tried to get to act relatively normal, he's not really doing that much. He's not doing what he would have done, what he did last season, when Dean was going through his reckless phase.
I think Dean's going to Hell taught Sam in the most cruel way possible that Dean isn't always going to be around and he needs to stop needing him. At this point, I don't know if Sam is dependent on Dean for anything but love.
Hopping over from spn_heavymeta to say that I agree. :3 Well, partially.
I think you're right in that Dean going to hell taught Sam that he doesn't always need Dean and that S&V made it very clear that Dean wanted his little brother back. But the thing is, Sam does need Dean, too, only he needs him as his constant to keep him from going off on the warpath the way he's been doing in S4.
Dean needing Sam seems to be more of a conscious thing -- he realizes it; he misses Sam. He knows that he misses Sam. Dean needs Sam for his purpose, to have something to do. That's been his whole life. Now that Sam doesn't need his protection anymore, it seems he's lost as to where to go
( ... )
Sam needing Dean is far more of a subtle, subconscious thing. But at this point, I think it's also too late to go back to the way things were -- Sam has seen too much of how fragile and breakable Dean is, which drives him to step up his game.
Agreed.
So they both need each other to the same degree; I think they just need each other for different reasons.
I do think they need each other. They definitely need each other. All their emotional support and most of their social interaction comes from each other. They're family, friends, everything. They begin and end with each other.
What I meant was that I don't think Sam is dependent on Dean - as in, he doesn't need Dean's protection anymore. He needs Dean's love and support instead.
What I meant was that I don't think Sam is dependent on Dean - as in, he doesn't need Dean's protection anymore. He needs Dean's love and support instead.
Oh, absolutely agree here. I don't believe Sam ever needed Dean's protection to the degree that Dean gave it; I think that protection, while no doubt appreciated, was also what fostered his constant rebellion. I mean, there's only so many times you can let someone sacrifice himself for you before it starts to make you feel guilty and that guilt's going to translate into resentment and the desire for you to do something on your own for once, to repay the favour.
I actually feel the love and support thing is what both of them need, only neither of them realize it because of the way they've been raised. For the Winchesters, loving your family is directly equated with protecting your family no matter what the cost of that protection is, when in fact, this may not always be the best approach.
You raise some interesting points about Sam and Dean and their respective need for each other. People tend to make a lot of Dean's need for Sam, but between the two of them, Dean is the one who has repeatedly survived Sam walking out on him; we've only once seen Dean attempt to do the same, and Sam's reaction was of barely controlled panic
( ... )
Yes, I agree with the way that you've put it. Dean pretty much created his entire world when he was younger, and though Sam certainly pushed the boundaries, I think he counts on there being boundaries to push. I think the worst moment actually was when Sam lied to Dean's face in Death Takes a Holiday and Dean just didn't care. Because his Sam is gone, like he said, and the Sam he knows is a stranger.
Which, yeah, the whole, "I don't know you, you don't know me' would definitely be a really good topic to meta on 'cause it's been so prevalent this season. I think you're right about Sam, that Dean's going to leave and he's going to be shocked. Originally I thought Ruby would leave him and he'd come running to Dean but I guess they're going all the way with that, accept no substitutes.
Dean's personal growth has had its roots in defining himself outside of where he stands with John and SamYeah, so true. And that's why I was kind of suspicious of Zachariah even though it was nice
( ... )
though Sam certainly pushed the boundaries, I think he counts on there being boundaries to push
I think that's exactly it. Sam can push the boundaries because Dean's always been there to create them for him. When Dean died, those boundaries were removed; no wonder Sam's spiraling out of control now!
Originally I thought Ruby would leave him and he'd come running to Dean but I guess they're going all the way with that, accept no substitutes.
I don't see Ruby leaving Sam (though I hope at some point Sam leaves Ruby). I think they've hinted at Dean leaving throughout the season and I hope they do go there at some point, if only to have the brilliant reunion later on. If I thought for a minute that any separation would be permanent, I'd be upset and worried, but as is, I'm looking forward to a huge blow out fight and a reconciliation later.
Dean may kind of need right now in terms of a push but - all that stuff about becoming who he was meant to be made it sound like Zachariah has a plan for him regardless of what Dean wantsI don'
( ... )
OMG. This is one of the most insightful metas I have read in a long time. I am glad I am not the only one who noticed Dean's rebuttal to Sam's statement 'I know you'. He doesn't anymore. but just like that Sam is no longer 'Sammy' anymore. Both characters have become emancipated and while Sam is embracing his new found self, Dean is still struggling with the new definition of his life
( ... )
Actually, I hadn't thought about the cleansing much but I think you're right considering he came back with no scars on his body. Like they washed away his past in a way, which is kind of appropriate for this season.
And yeah, blood's been such a big deal the whole series. That a piece of meta right there, tracking the uses and significance of blood throughout SPN (beside just the fact that Kripke likes a nice messy kill). I mean, Sam literally has something else in his blood, kind of the opposite of what Dean does. And you wonder at what point will they cease to be blood kin? I bet Sam's caught in a devil's trap before the season's out.
And yeah, Dean is struggling. And it's sad because he has to do it alone, no support from Sam, but then again, that would almost cripple him more, I think. And there's the difference; Sam's come into himself with Ruby's help where Dean's had to do it either alone or with the angels actually interfering with that process. So yeah, Sam's a lot more dependent than he thinks.
Very good meta, just one thing I found puzzling: I don't think it took Dean until now to realize why HE wants to hunt - there could be made a case for it as early as Wendigo (2/1), but at the very latest it's the Djinn-episode, where he decides to go back to his life as a hunter because of all the (to him unknown) people he could save. Meaning, it's been about some sort of active philanthropy on his part and not just protecting his family or even revenge for his dead mother.
Well...but at the same time, in Wendigo, didn't he deliberately link hunting to his father and what his father would want? And it was kind of the same in the djinn episode because he went back because he knew his dad would expect it of him. Like, again, I think it's one of those things where he has it in him, clearly, because he is the one doing the action, but his reasoning is always tied up with what dad would want. I think that's why even as early as season two, he was saying, 'why do we do this? Why can't we quit, don't we deserve to be happy?' You'd think it would be Sam but Sam's actually never complained like that outside of going to Stanford - probably because of the personal connection with Jess.
I think that Dean is the one hunter whose motivation could end up being something other than hatred or bitterness, maybe that's part of what makes him righteous.
Hmm, that's interesting!
Because I think it's true to a larger degree than Sammy knows.
Heh, I think it's true to a larger degree than Dean knows :>
I liked that Sammy was in the service industry but didn't seem to care much for the people he's serving and I think it was particularly fitting that Dean's job was basically to smooth-talk people - it's what Dean does best
Nice catch, yeah, his interest lies elsewhere. And what I liked about this view of Dean is that he fit in well, just the way he did in Folsom, which I think said something about both places.
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Yet this season, despite both Sam and Dean being very different, it's Dean who seems to need Sam to be his old self again, rather than the other way around. For the last few episodes, especially since S&V, Dean's been really down, and while Sam seems to have tried to get to act relatively normal, he's not really doing that much. He's not doing what he would have done, what he did last season, when Dean was going through his reckless phase.
I think Dean's going to Hell taught Sam in the most cruel way possible that Dean isn't always going to be around and he needs to stop needing him. At this point, I don't know if Sam is dependent on Dean for anything but love.
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I think you're right in that Dean going to hell taught Sam that he doesn't always need Dean and that S&V made it very clear that Dean wanted his little brother back. But the thing is, Sam does need Dean, too, only he needs him as his constant to keep him from going off on the warpath the way he's been doing in S4.
Dean needing Sam seems to be more of a conscious thing -- he realizes it; he misses Sam. He knows that he misses Sam. Dean needs Sam for his purpose, to have something to do. That's been his whole life. Now that Sam doesn't need his protection anymore, it seems he's lost as to where to go ( ... )
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Agreed.
So they both need each other to the same degree; I think they just need each other for different reasons.
I do think they need each other. They definitely need each other. All their emotional support and most of their social interaction comes from each other. They're family, friends, everything. They begin and end with each other.
What I meant was that I don't think Sam is dependent on Dean - as in, he doesn't need Dean's protection anymore. He needs Dean's love and support instead.
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Oh, absolutely agree here. I don't believe Sam ever needed Dean's protection to the degree that Dean gave it; I think that protection, while no doubt appreciated, was also what fostered his constant rebellion. I mean, there's only so many times you can let someone sacrifice himself for you before it starts to make you feel guilty and that guilt's going to translate into resentment and the desire for you to do something on your own for once, to repay the favour.
I actually feel the love and support thing is what both of them need, only neither of them realize it because of the way they've been raised. For the Winchesters, loving your family is directly equated with protecting your family no matter what the cost of that protection is, when in fact, this may not always be the best approach.
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Yes, I agree with the way that you've put it. Dean pretty much created his entire world when he was younger, and though Sam certainly pushed the boundaries, I think he counts on there being boundaries to push. I think the worst moment actually was when Sam lied to Dean's face in Death Takes a Holiday and Dean just didn't care. Because his Sam is gone, like he said, and the Sam he knows is a stranger.
Which, yeah, the whole, "I don't know you, you don't know me' would definitely be a really good topic to meta on 'cause it's been so prevalent this season. I think you're right about Sam, that Dean's going to leave and he's going to be shocked. Originally I thought Ruby would leave him and he'd come running to Dean but I guess they're going all the way with that, accept no substitutes.
Dean's personal growth has had its roots in defining himself outside of where he stands with John and SamYeah, so true. And that's why I was kind of suspicious of Zachariah even though it was nice ( ... )
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I think that's exactly it. Sam can push the boundaries because Dean's always been there to create them for him. When Dean died, those boundaries were removed; no wonder Sam's spiraling out of control now!
Originally I thought Ruby would leave him and he'd come running to Dean but I guess they're going all the way with that, accept no substitutes.
I don't see Ruby leaving Sam (though I hope at some point Sam leaves Ruby). I think they've hinted at Dean leaving throughout the season and I hope they do go there at some point, if only to have the brilliant reunion later on. If I thought for a minute that any separation would be permanent, I'd be upset and worried, but as is, I'm looking forward to a huge blow out fight and a reconciliation later.
Dean may kind of need right now in terms of a push but - all that stuff about becoming who he was meant to be made it sound like Zachariah has a plan for him regardless of what Dean wantsI don' ( ... )
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And yeah, blood's been such a big deal the whole series. That a piece of meta right there, tracking the uses and significance of blood throughout SPN (beside just the fact that Kripke likes a nice messy kill). I mean, Sam literally has something else in his blood, kind of the opposite of what Dean does. And you wonder at what point will they cease to be blood kin? I bet Sam's caught in a devil's trap before the season's out.
And yeah, Dean is struggling. And it's sad because he has to do it alone, no support from Sam, but then again, that would almost cripple him more, I think. And there's the difference; Sam's come into himself with Ruby's help where Dean's had to do it either alone or with the angels actually interfering with that process. So yeah, Sam's a lot more dependent than he thinks.
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Hmm, that's interesting!
Because I think it's true to a larger degree than Sammy knows.
Heh, I think it's true to a larger degree than Dean knows :>
I liked that Sammy was in the service industry but didn't seem to care much for the people he's serving and I think it was particularly fitting that Dean's job was basically to smooth-talk people - it's what Dean does best
Nice catch, yeah, his interest lies elsewhere. And what I liked about this view of Dean is that he fit in well, just the way he did in Folsom, which I think said something about both places.
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