Just some thoughts on the thoughts about 4x08

[soniced_up]

I've seen quite a few people who are upset that Moffat seems to have blatantly ripped off pretty much every piece of popular science fiction known to man.  I'm not agreeing or disagreeing here, I will hold my judgment until after next week but I do have an idea why he's done this.  I think it might be on purpose.  They are in a library.  The little

Comments

[kalibex]

why is it so hard for Moffat to write convincing strong, independent women?

*blinks* River Song is female character 'chopped liver'?

[scarletcurls]

she is far from a strong independent women... she is a married woman who keeps a diary of all the things her and her "husband" do.

She feels the need to call him "sweetheart" and "darling".

[longlostblue]

So women aren't allowed to show affection, or else it automatically makes them weak and helpless? Sorry, I don't get it.

[annissa]

I think scarletcurls' point was that River's life seems to revolve around The Doctor and feels the need to 'prove' her love in a way by calling him pet names.

Or maybe I'm wrong?

[akeyoftime]

This article has a few unsettling little quotes buried in there, specifically about women. I felt Donna was a bit diminished too, but it wasn't outrageous and it's a bit of fresh air to see the female guest star (Hooray for River Song!) get to shine.

What I'm trying to say is that I agree with your concerns, I really hope things go well for the strong, independent women of the world in series 5, and I'm hoping that the surrounding production team and a kick-ass actress, whomever she'll be, will help to mellow it out.

[winterwooskie2]

I'm not concerned by Moffat's treatment of women on the whole - Sally was pretty fierce, bizarre sudden onset of relationship with some random bloke aside - but Miss Evangelista struck me as vaguely off-putting. She was stupid, clingy, laughed at, a red-shirt (in fact she seemed to only be there to be laughed at and then die) and she was made up with big pouty lips and wide eyes that made her resemble a sex doll. She was a victim in every sense, was largely ignored by others...Donna's friendship with her worked to dispel that and expose the nastiness of the bullying, but it remained a fairly problematic portrayal

[madamotaku]

I'm hoping that there is actually some significance to Miss Evangelista's character and her relationship to Donna that will be revealed in ep 9 (something I heard in the audio commentary indicated that this may be the case), because otherwise I don't get why she exists. At first I was thinking she'd do something clever by the end of the story and prove her fellow crewmembers wrong but...no. Her death was nicely creepy, but the Moff could have easily done the same with Other Dave.

Ice cream = I scream (her dying moment) possibly?

[winterwooskie2]

Yeah, I heard she'll be of greater importance than we've been led to believe thus far, so I'm hoping that helps dispel the problems.

And yes, I agree - her death WAS creepy, and it helped that she was so childlike. And the "I scream" thing crossed my mind too. I thought it was a nice play on words that made the scene more unsettling - comfort food or horror?

[beandelphiki]

Yeah, I thought the point of, "ice cream," was that it's an innocuous phrase which gradually becomes more and more unnerving the longer you listen to it being repeated. Very Moffat.

[nina_ds]

I think you are on to something with the library, and there is power in these classic narrative tropes- without them, what would DW do? Although Moffat seems to have now based two, possibly three, episodes on The Time Traveler's Wife, and while a very good book, should perhaps be retired.

why is it so hard for Moffat to write convincing strong, independent women?

He did give us Nancy, but I don't actually think he thought of her as a woman

[soniced_up]

But Moffat is terrible about "tell, not show" with relationships

He was also the one who said "There’s no need for character development, or chat, it’s straight into: ‘There’s something wrong here, let’s look into this deep, dark hole.’" . Which frankly, scares the hell out of me, because for me the 'scare' and the character development are equally as important.

I really hope I am wrong. I hope Riversong ends up being something entirely different from what is being hinted at. It's the blatantness of this that makes me think it might be possible she isn't what she semms.

[winterwooskie2]

Oh gosh, did he say that? I was JUST thinking to myself that the problem this episode had was that it was all scares and enigmas, little substance. I think Moffat feels the pressure from the audience and his colleagues to write the kind of episode he's now known for, to the point where he's almost accidentally caricaturing himself. But I also think that when he's presumably writing more for the show and in charge that he'll shine more and start branching out (obvs!).

And I'm sorry to see that you seem to have received some flack (judging by the edit). I'm becoming extremely tired of anyone who criticizes the Moff being labeled as a ~hater~ who's participating in a backlash. We're not being hateful, just impartial!

[soniced_up]

I think you are right and when he's incharge of the entire show things will be different. He'll have to look at the 'big picture' rather than just the one or two episodes he writes. I also think your right about him being under pressure to deliver because his episodes are so talked about.

I watched, Jekyll as well, and thouroughly enjoyed it but I found most of hte additional characters to be a tad two dimensional, so I am basing my fears on more than just DW.

I think the reason Blink worked so well is because it was Doctor lite. It was a fantastic story that could have been told with or without the Doctor in a lot of ways, save the TARDIS of course. He's a fantastic story teller but his character development, for me, leaves a bit to be desired.

[2cbetter2]

On a completely unrelated note...why is it so hard for Moffat to write convincing strong, independent women?

Ummm, what about Sally Sparrow in BLINK? She was pretty strong in my book, so much so I'd love to see her back as a regular companion to the Doctor.

And another one I thought showed a bit of strength was Nancy in TEC/TDD. Yeah I know she looked like a kid but seeing as she had a child and was doing the best she could to keep those other children from starving on the street she seem like to me she had a bit of strength.

[soniced_up]

Yes ok, Sally was pretty kickass. But there was still something 'offputting' about her. Maybe it was her obsession, her refusal to live life until coming in contact with the Doctor again. Maybe it was how she ended up with Larry in the end. Just didn't 'feel' right to me.

And Nancy, while I did like her as well, was a scared child.

As for Riversong, somehthing about her just feels 'wrong', I'm really hoping that Moffat proves me wrong and that the obvious route he is taking isn't exactly what it seems.

somehthing about her just feels 'wrong'

[gillyp]

It does, intentionally so, I'm convinced of it. There's one point where she smiles this smug little smile behind the Doctor's back... I'm sure there's a lot more to her than we've seen so far.

Re: somehthing about her just feels 'wrong'

[soniced_up]

Oh I'm sure there is more to her, at least I hope so. I really am trying to withold my judgement until after next week. It's just because off all the talk about her I find myself thinking more and more on her character and the 'wrongness' just keeps getting bigger and bigger. Of course that could have been the cold meds too. :)