SWG Re-Read - "Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin" Discussion Post

[oloriel]

Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin

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Welcome this fortnight's chapter discussion!

Important: This is not a spoiler-free zone. It is hard to discuss any chapter in depth without referring to things that happen in later chapters. Proceed at your own risk! Furthermore, it’s perfectly fine

Comments

[zambla]

the meeting of the cousins [turin & tuor] always seemed like a strange scene to me. it seems like it should serve some orderly, symbolic purpose, but i can't puzzle it out.

[indy1776]

I think it's a matter of symmetry, or rather, asymmetry. Túrin is cursed by a Vala and Tuor is being helped by a Vala. (Maybe that they're both being manipulated by them, one for good and one for bad.) Add in that Morgoth seeks to dominate, rule, and write his own theme in the Music and that Ulmo is actively helping despite the Valar's stated noninterference policy, they're both rebels of one sort or another.

Beyond that, I can't think of anything beyond it being one of those random events that we don't think anything of at the time only to later find out its significance, which doesn't seem right.

[zambla]

symmetry-- yes, i see that it's in there, and maybe also as an echo for their fathers' stories and love for each other. but the scene still seems ambiguous, even within that framework.

i really like this aspect of tolkien's storytelling in the silmarillion and beyond, where there is often not very clear symbolic meaning -- or where there are multiple or ambiguous meanings. it makes the story feel layered and substanced, as if many minds had run their hands through it. and i really like this scene, with its strangeness.

[anna_wing]

I like the inconsequentiality of i: "Oh, and along the way, Tuor saw a chap heading off in a great hurry in the distance, and discovered long afterwards that it must have been his cousin Turin, on his way to his doom. But it had nothing to do with Tuor really."

[anna_wing]

I think of events in Middle-earth as being influenced by the wills of the Valar, including Morgoth, not by directly commanding that such and such will happen, but by simply moving probabilities around pre-existing situations, including of course, the characters of the people involved. So both Morgoth and Ulmo (and possibly Lorien too, if you include Idril's forebodings and dreams) had their attention in Gondolin, and what happened was the result of all those conflicting desires meetings each other

[zambla]

re: will of valar. i think tolkien's conception of his universe had a strong sense of free will -- so yes, i completely agree that the valars were not commanders of events, but had the same type of normal 'agency' as any of the humanoids, just to a vaster extent.

[indy1776]

Speaking of reincarnation, the easiest way to make Tuor an elf would be to let him die a normal mortal death and then just rehouse him as an Elf instead of letting him waltz off beyond the Circles of the World like everyone else.

That makes sense, especially when you consider that in comparasion to Lúthien, who did the opposite. Which begs the question if Idril and Tuor knew beforehand if he would be reborn as an Elf or if it was as a surprise.

[anna_wing]

My Valar are reasonable and well-meaning, so I am sure that it was discussed beforehand.

[hhimring]

It is clear that the Silmaril is a requirement for getting to Valinor--Earendil, who apparently has the required genetic makeup spends a lot of time and effort trying to get to Valinor, but doesn't succeed until he has the Silmaril. Possibly Elwing's presence helps, too, but that is less clear

[indy1776]

It is clear that the Silmaril is a requirement for getting to Valinor

This. Being a bit cynical, the Valar don't want it falling into the Sea, so they let it through. (Or they set the enchantments to exclude anyone bearing a Silmaril in the off-chance the Noldor were successful.) I tend to think Idril and Tuor crashed in the Enchanted Isles and slept there until the Change of the World.

Again, in the version we have "the wise" don't seem really to know--at least those in Middle-earth...

What makes it even more interesting is that Pengolodh and Aelfwine still exist for many of the drafts. And they're on Tol Eressea in the Middle Ages. So if the wise don't know, it could very well include those in Valinor. Guess it's supposed to be one of those mysteries no one ever really knows the answer to. (Though you'd think the Valar would let Idril's family know, at least.)

[oloriel]

Though you'd think the Valar would let Idril's family know, at least.

Perhaps they know, but aren't allowed to talk about it. Otherwise, everyone will start bringing in stray mortals! ;)