SWG Re-Read - "Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin" Discussion Post

[oloriel]

Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin

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Welcome this fortnight's chapter discussion!

Important: This is not a spoiler-free zone. It is hard to discuss any chapter in depth without referring to things that happen in later chapters. Proceed at your own risk! Furthermore, it’s perfectly fine

Comments

[anna_wing]

I think of events in Middle-earth as being influenced by the wills of the Valar, including Morgoth, not by directly commanding that such and such will happen, but by simply moving probabilities around pre-existing situations, including of course, the characters of the people involved. So both Morgoth and Ulmo (and possibly Lorien too, if you include Idril's forebodings and dreams) had their attention in Gondolin, and what happened was the result of all those conflicting desires meetings each other.

Since Tumladen was clearly a caldera, there was probably a fair amount of geothermal activity around, which might have influenced the climate and agriculture.

One does wonder how Maeglin could possibly manage to reconcile with everyone, if he is ever reincarnated. Though one would hope that his wretched parents would take some responsibility for everything that they did to him.Speaking of reincarnation, the easiest way to make Tuor an elf would be to let him die a normal mortal death and then just rehouse him as an Elf instead of letting him waltz off beyond the Circles of the World like everyone else. Since he spent most of his life among Elves, the psychological adjustment wouldn't be too difficult.

I think that all the stuff about who was qualified to speak before the Valar and move them to act against Morgoth etc etc was actually ex-post facto justification by mortal writers trying desperately to assign comprehensible motivations to the Valar. The whole thing makes more sense if you just assume that the Valar were acting on their own time-table taking account of whatever factors they considered relevant, of which, possibly, the Silmaril and its arrival might have been one.

[zambla]

re: will of valar. i think tolkien's conception of his universe had a strong sense of free will -- so yes, i completely agree that the valars were not commanders of events, but had the same type of normal 'agency' as any of the humanoids, just to a vaster extent.

[indy1776]

Speaking of reincarnation, the easiest way to make Tuor an elf would be to let him die a normal mortal death and then just rehouse him as an Elf instead of letting him waltz off beyond the Circles of the World like everyone else.

That makes sense, especially when you consider that in comparasion to Lúthien, who did the opposite. Which begs the question if Idril and Tuor knew beforehand if he would be reborn as an Elf or if it was as a surprise.

[anna_wing]

My Valar are reasonable and well-meaning, so I am sure that it was discussed beforehand.

[oloriel]

Since Tumladen was clearly a caldera, there was probably a fair amount of geothermal activity around, which might have influenced the climate and agriculture.

So glad I'm not the only one who ascribes geothermal activity to cold Middle-earth places. ^^

Speaking of reincarnation, the easiest way to make Tuor an elf would be to let him die a normal mortal death and then just rehouse him as an Elf instead of letting him waltz off beyond the Circles of the World like everyone else.

Not sure that would work. For some reason, this clearly wasn't done for Beren, either because the Valar wouldn't or couldn't. If they just didn't want to, OK, maybe they changed their minds (good thing most descendants of Beren and Lúthien are also descendants of Tuor after a certain point...), but I get the impression that the matter of "rehousing" followed rules that the Valar couldn't so easily bend.
Or maybe the mind. If Tuor had been raised as an elf and spent most of his adult life among Elves, perhaps he really didn't think of himself as a mortal (whereas Beren's mortality was deeply engrained in his mind), and thus rehousing was possible. Hm. I guess that would make sense then!

I think that all the stuff about who was qualified to speak before the Valar and move them to act against Morgoth etc etc was actually ex-post facto justification by mortal writers trying desperately to assign comprehensible motivations to the Valar.

Not even just mortal writers. I think Elves have just as much of an interest in somehow explaining historical events, and if they revered the Valar, it would make sense for them (as much as for, say, Faithful Númenoreans) to say "They couldn't help because this or that condition had to be fulfilled first", rather than "Nah, they were just acting offended and wanted a proper apology! With extra Silmaril on top!" or "They had their own agenda"...

[anna_wing]

Yes, I do a lot of hand-waving along the lines of "the Valar are well-meaning but deeply, deeply alien, you are trying to talk to Personified Universal Forces here, who knows what the reasoning of the strong nuclear force is really like?"

Or maybe the mind. If Tuor had been raised as an elf and spent most of his adult life among Elves, perhaps he really didn't think of himself as a mortal (whereas Beren's mortality was deeply engrained in his mind), and thus rehousing was possible. Hm. I guess that would make sense then!

Something like that, I think (waves hands harder). Or perhaps because Luthien's departure was unforeseen (after all, she could have chosen to stay and mourn and remember Beren forever if she had been less action-oriented) so there was an Elf-shaped space left in the Song that Tuor could conveniently fill....