Sorry, had to use the quote because of its appropriateness. Bonus points if you recognize it; it's not from the three fandoms I'm going to talk about
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Doesn't count because the audience actually knew her from two previous seasons as a living person. The examples I gave really are either already dead when the show starts or die within the first few minutes.
I do agree Marian is still a powerful presence in s3, btw.
I was boring and chose all three, as I like all three for very different reasons.
nor did he cheat on a fannish darling with a relative.
So it would have been okay if he hadn't been a fannish darling? j/k. Although I never took Lily cheating on Logan with that particular relative as a reason for her being less likeable - it's part of the game they played, since he cheated on her, too, and I don't think she really was mature or emotionally stable enough to realize that this was far worse than the Weevil thing.
My phrasing of the cheating was because Nathaniel did cheat on Ruth, but I doubt SFU fandom loved Ruth the way Veronica Mars fandom loved Logan. I mean, personally, I never caught the Logan fever - he's just like Ianto or Rose that way to me - and I completely agree on your take re: Lily cheating on him, but going by the enormous hostility I saw directed at Veronica, I couldn't imagine Lily escaping the "omg, she hurt Logan, how could she!" phenomenon.
Ah, see, I'd either never known or forgotten that Nathaniel cheated on Ruth (although it doesn't come as a surprise).
but I doubt SFU fandom loved Ruth the way Veronica Mars fandom loved Logan.
Without having ever been in SFU fandom I'd be willing to guarantee that you are right. :)
I mean, personally, I never caught the Logan feverIn all fairness, I'm not particularly neutral on the boy - I hated him purely because of his more rabid fans, who in some cases clearly thought he was Spike by another name, with poor Veronica substituting for Buffy. Looking back from a more neutral position, I'd say that he's a somewhat interesting, deeply flawed character who would have made a great wingman for Duncan as the really messed up broken golden boy, had they chosen to go into that direction. I always found him too obnoxious to be actually sympathetic, although his backstory explained a lot of that
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Nate finds out re: Nathaniel in the first season, but it's rarely brought up again, and narratively not as important as Ruth's guilt about her own extramarital affair.
I hated him purely because of his more rabid fans, who in some cases clearly thought he was Spike by another name, with poor Veronica substituting for Buffy.
Speaking as an outsider of VM fandom, I had that impression myself. I.e. disgruntled Spike/Buffy shippers who didn't get what they wanted with one pairing adopting Logan/Veronica and then being doubly frustrated they didn't get the story they wanted there, either. With Duncan getting Riley and Angel hate from the same faction combined. :) My own impression was that Logan-Duncan-Veronica was sort of interesting because it fulfillled my criterium for not irritating triangle (i.e. all three parties must be invested in each other, not just A and B in rivalry for C; Logan and Duncan had their own relationship), Logan/Veronica less so, and it already felt artificially prolonged by the end of s2, so I'm really not
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I love "talking dead people," as I tend to call them. They're a fantastic device, for all the reasons you mention. I love Lilly with all my heart, and I think everything you've said about her here is very true; Nathaniel was quite awesome as well.
I wonder what category "characters we knew who end up dead and then show up in people's imaginations/memories" falls into. I feel like Jean Grey has Lilly-like potential there, though of course given the nature of the show it's hard to tell what's imagination and what might actually be her.
shezan named Marian in the third season of the newest tv version of Robin Hood, who falls into this Jean Grey territory. But Jean, and Marion, are characters we as readers/audience first get to meet for a long time as living people, which I think makes a big difference. For starters, we don't have to wonder as to what difference memory or fantasy makes - we met them on the same terms as anyone else, so to speak. And once they show up as dead people, we can compare to what we ourselves have seen. For example, I thought Scott's flashback of himself and Jean in the desert after they had sex and before she goes Dark Phoenix, from Torn, was a great way of showing the subjectivity of memory and connect it to the present day, because it's not exactly the same thing that did happen in the original Phoenix saga, close enough, but the difference is that here Scott tries to talk to Jean about what's going on with her Phoenix-dom in time and makes the comparison to his own power control issues
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No kidding. So many questions. Why not both children? Did he ever tell his wife about Laura? After Dexter had started killing animals and before Harry came up with the "let's make you the Punisher" idea, and there was at least a decade between, did Harry think Dexter would be able to deflect his violence to animals for the rest of his life? Or did he already assume one day Dexter would start with humans as well? Did he just neglect Deb or did he deliberately keep her away because he thought she'd be able to figure it out if he raised her as a cop as well? Etc., etc.
And we have a winner. I was indeed thinking of the Nostalgia ads from Watchmen, because the Comedian of course is another character who dies at the start of the story and who nonetheless is a very important presence throughout the story.
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I do agree Marian is still a powerful presence in s3, btw.
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nor did he cheat on a fannish darling with a relative.
So it would have been okay if he hadn't been a fannish darling? j/k. Although I never took Lily cheating on Logan with that particular relative as a reason for her being less likeable - it's part of the game they played, since he cheated on her, too, and I don't think she really was mature or emotionally stable enough to realize that this was far worse than the Weevil thing.
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but I doubt SFU fandom loved Ruth the way Veronica Mars fandom loved Logan.
Without having ever been in SFU fandom I'd be willing to guarantee that you are right. :)
I mean, personally, I never caught the Logan feverIn all fairness, I'm not particularly neutral on the boy - I hated him purely because of his more rabid fans, who in some cases clearly thought he was Spike by another name, with poor Veronica substituting for Buffy. Looking back from a more neutral position, I'd say that he's a somewhat interesting, deeply flawed character who would have made a great wingman for Duncan as the really messed up broken golden boy, had they chosen to go into that direction. I always found him too obnoxious to be actually sympathetic, although his backstory explained a lot of that ( ... )
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I hated him purely because of his more rabid fans, who in some cases clearly thought he was Spike by another name, with poor Veronica substituting for Buffy.
Speaking as an outsider of VM fandom, I had that impression myself. I.e. disgruntled Spike/Buffy shippers who didn't get what they wanted with one pairing adopting Logan/Veronica and then being doubly frustrated they didn't get the story they wanted there, either. With Duncan getting Riley and Angel hate from the same faction combined. :) My own impression was that Logan-Duncan-Veronica was sort of interesting because it fulfillled my criterium for not irritating triangle (i.e. all three parties must be invested in each other, not just A and B in rivalry for C; Logan and Duncan had their own relationship), Logan/Veronica less so, and it already felt artificially prolonged by the end of s2, so I'm really not ( ... )
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I wonder what category "characters we knew who end up dead and then show up in people's imaginations/memories" falls into. I feel like Jean Grey has Lilly-like potential there, though of course given the nature of the show it's hard to tell what's imagination and what might actually be her.
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