daybreak777 is allowed to laugh at this next statement--I might have a slight tendency to be blind to Leoben's worst faults. Just maybe. *g
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1. He been talking to the Hybrid(s) about her what with her destiny to lead the cylons to earth and doom humanity. D:!
I always find it worrisome that Leoben takes advice from the Hybrid(s). 'Cause he's crazy enough on his own. *g* As for freaky old hybrid and doom of humanity... I'm still baffled about how to interpret that.
2. I tend to think that was the Chamalla, what with Roslin's other prophetic visions.
I might have agreed with this early on but I've rewatched F&B way too many times now. (All for fic-related purposes, you understand.;-) Roslin's dreams were sympathetic toward him (or at least didn't show him in a scary way). And the result of the dreams was that she talked to him in person--which, if anything, benefited the cylons. He got to drip poison in her ear about 'Adama' (whichever one) being a cylon, and meet her and assess her for weaknesses, then take that information back to the others. Okay, possibly I'm over-analyzing this. Heh.
3. I hope hope hope think that prophecy was fulfilled when she told him she
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*laughs* Yeah, I'm kinda gettin' that vibe. I think my pick would be anything/everything connected to Kacey. Because he made her believe and care, and it was all taken away from her.
I do get that it's not all his fault. No, really! ;) I do think everything that happened with Kara in Collaborators and Torn is down to him - she probably wouldn't have gone that far down if she hadn't been screwed up to begin with, but he sort of pulled the trigger on her subscriptions worth of issues. What I'd really like to know is why he did it. To take her out of commission? Because he knew, somehow, that she needed to be broken down in order to fulfill her destiny? Or was he simply hoping to play happy family in there with her forever?
Ooh, questions! I love questions. Let me answer with my gut reactions first. I usually pore over my responses but not today. Today I'm indulging my own personal (with help from many) Leoben canon.
1. Does each model have a basic program, with individualized parts to help him work certain missions? Do the individual copies develop their own identities? Yes, and yes. I think there is a base program but each Cylon's experiences can change it. They can overcome programming like D'Anna and Sharon. I feel like Leoben was programmed to be intense and to fixate. On God, on destiny. I think that he and Kara have some connection. Not just this cycle that we're watching but back and back and back. He sees it, he remembers. She doesn't. And when I say 'he' I mean F&B and NC Leoben.
2. Does Leoben possess the ability to manifest in others' dreams? If so, why? If not, where did Roslin's dreams in F&B come from?No. I don't think so. I think that Roslin was on the chamalla and saw things. Like the snakes on the podium. She was prescient then
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5. Who is head!Leoben? What's his agenda? I don't know! Months and months and much discussion later and I have no idea! I know who I want him to be. I want the Cylon God to exist and be kindly. I want head!Leoben to be an instrument of this God the way that Six says she always is. I think Kara draped her messenger in Leoben's face because that fit for her. She needed to fight her destiny and she was used to fighting him. If she could accept the words from him, she would have truly accepted her destiny. Whoa. I just made that up but it sounds right to me.
6. In a (sweaty) boxing match, what would win: wee yet fiery ApolloBamceps or wiry cylon strength? Bamceps. He's wee but scrawy arms wouldn't have that much power. But Lee against Helo? Helo. But you got to admire Lee's gumption!
Blind Character Love is always okay. ;-) Who isn't blind to some character? Besides, you've come a long way, right? And hey, wait? Where are your answers to these questions? Now, I'm curious. And feel free to refute my crazy Leoben logic, this is fun. ;
6. In a (sweaty) boxing match, what would win: wee yet fiery ApolloBamceps or wiry cylon strength? Bamceps. He's wee but scrawy arms wouldn't have that much power. But Lee against Helo? Helo. But you got to admire Lee's gumption!
Yeah, but, cylon!strength. Twiggy little Sharon was stronger than the Bamcepts!
Little Sharon. I would love to see her kick ass more often, actually.
Now you make me want to see an Apollo-Leoben showdown! I bet Lee has few choice moves for him. Ooooh! He may not win but if Kara can take down Six at Six's kickass best (because Kara is awesomely crazy), then who knows what Lee can do?
Actually, I don't care who wins, I just want to see it. Bring it, BSG, bring it!
Hi Sissi! I think you are right on number 1. It is a contradiction. I was watching Home Pt. 2 the other day too. Sharon can remember being on Galactica, even seems to remember some feelings for the Chief but she can't remember shooting the old man? You can't have it both ways, BSG. (Also when Helo shot Sharon Agathon, that Sharon downloaded into another body and got Hera. There didn't seem to be any memory loss there.) But of course, they can write it any way they want. ;-) And they will. But they should explain this better before the show ends. I hope so.
I love to spread my bad englisch on themes like this *giggles*
You're right with Sharon and Helo. Sharon knows that her feelings for Hera won't change through the download and she didn't know of the attempt of murder Adama. It is a contradiction - or a very good explaining is waiting for us in season 4.
The Sharon with Hera loves her child. The Sharon on the Ressurection ship wants to murder her. The question is very hard to explain and I hope we all get an answer in season 4.
Good points about Sharon and Boomer. I do think the cylons have basic programming with the ability to make choices based on that programming. But there are lots of pieces that don't fit with that scenario.
But I love the thought of a Leoben who knows really something more than the humans... and I hate the thought that he is maybe only crazy.
Well, he might be crazy and still know more about the humans than he should. I do think there's at least an element of insanity in what he does, but it might be 'part of the plan.'
The scene was necessary for a better understanding of Kara. I think in season 4 she will be act more like a cylon-lover than as the Kara of the Mini-Serie or Season 1+2.
Interesting. It would fit with her being an outcast and distrusted, because the others believed her to be dead.
Ragnar!Leoben scared me deeply and was most instrumental in convincing me that the cylons were dangerous, even though they'd won by that point.
Oh, definitely. I thought he was terrifying. I wonder if they always had it in mind to make him such a manipulator, because we didn't see that side of him in the mini-series.
It's some of the later incarnations that really confuse me and I've put that down as a problem with the writing, not the character as originally created. Now I just might get why...
Good luck with that! *g*
I don't think I've ever mentioned this in a post before, but I was very surprised at the season three incarnation of Leoben. I really didn't expect to see him in the role of "wooer" (for lack of a better word); I did see the chemistry between his character and Kara in F&B, but I didn't expect the show to run with it in that particular direction. I did think it was watchable (which seems contrary to your own opinion, but we all have our preferences), but not what I would have predicted
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Comments 32
2. I tend to think that was the Chamalla, what with Roslin's other prophetic visions.
3. I hope hope hope think that prophecy was fulfilled when she told him she loved him in order to save Kacey, and then skewered him ( ... )
Reply
I always find it worrisome that Leoben takes advice from the Hybrid(s). 'Cause he's crazy enough on his own. *g* As for freaky old hybrid and doom of humanity... I'm still baffled about how to interpret that.
2. I tend to think that was the Chamalla, what with Roslin's other prophetic visions.
I might have agreed with this early on but I've rewatched F&B way too many times now. (All for fic-related purposes, you understand.;-) Roslin's dreams were sympathetic toward him (or at least didn't show him in a scary way). And the result of the dreams was that she talked to him in person--which, if anything, benefited the cylons. He got to drip poison in her ear about 'Adama' (whichever one) being a cylon, and meet her and assess her for weaknesses, then take that information back to the others. Okay, possibly I'm over-analyzing this. Heh.
3. I hope hope hope think that prophecy was fulfilled when she told him she ( ... )
Reply
2. Hmmm, that's interesting. Head-Leoben?
*laughs* Yeah, I'm kinda gettin' that vibe. I think my pick would be anything/everything connected to Kacey. Because he made her believe and care, and it was all taken away from her.
I do get that it's not all his fault. No, really! ;) I do think everything that happened with Kara in Collaborators and Torn is down to him - she probably wouldn't have gone that far down if she hadn't been screwed up to begin with, but he sort of pulled the trigger on her subscriptions worth of issues. What I'd really like to know is why he did it. To take her out of commission? Because he knew, somehow, that she needed to be broken down in order to fulfill her destiny? Or was he simply hoping to play happy family in there with her forever?
Reply
1. Does each model have a basic program, with individualized parts to help him work certain missions? Do the individual copies develop their own identities?
Yes, and yes. I think there is a base program but each Cylon's experiences can change it. They can overcome programming like D'Anna and Sharon. I feel like Leoben was programmed to be intense and to fixate. On God, on destiny. I think that he and Kara have some connection. Not just this cycle that we're watching but back and back and back. He sees it, he remembers. She doesn't. And when I say 'he' I mean F&B and NC Leoben.
2. Does Leoben possess the ability to manifest in others' dreams? If so, why? If not, where did Roslin's dreams in F&B come from?No. I don't think so. I think that Roslin was on the chamalla and saw things. Like the snakes on the podium. She was prescient then ( ... )
Reply
I don't know! Months and months and much discussion later and I have no idea! I know who I want him to be. I want the Cylon God to exist and be kindly. I want head!Leoben to be an instrument of this God the way that Six says she always is. I think Kara draped her messenger in Leoben's face because that fit for her. She needed to fight her destiny and she was used to fighting him. If she could accept the words from him, she would have truly accepted her destiny. Whoa. I just made that up but it sounds right to me.
6. In a (sweaty) boxing match, what would win: wee yet fiery ApolloBamceps or wiry cylon strength?
Bamceps. He's wee but scrawy arms wouldn't have that much power. But Lee against Helo? Helo. But you got to admire Lee's gumption!
Blind Character Love is always okay. ;-) Who isn't blind to some character? Besides, you've come a long way, right? And hey, wait? Where are your answers to these questions? Now, I'm curious. And feel free to refute my crazy Leoben logic, this is fun. ;
Reply
6. In a (sweaty) boxing match, what would win: wee yet fiery ApolloBamceps or wiry cylon strength?
Bamceps. He's wee but scrawy arms wouldn't have that much power. But Lee against Helo? Helo. But you got to admire Lee's gumption!
Yeah, but, cylon!strength. Twiggy little Sharon was stronger than the Bamcepts!
Reply
Now you make me want to see an Apollo-Leoben showdown! I bet Lee has few choice moves for him. Ooooh! He may not win but if Kara can take down Six at Six's kickass best (because Kara is awesomely crazy), then who knows what Lee can do?
Actually, I don't care who wins, I just want to see it. Bring it, BSG, bring it!
Reply
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Good to see you 'round here!
Reply
You're right with Sharon and Helo. Sharon knows that her feelings for Hera won't change through the download and she didn't know of the attempt of murder Adama. It is a contradiction - or a very good explaining is waiting for us in season 4.
Reply
The question is very hard to explain and I hope we all get an answer in season 4.
Good points about Sharon and Boomer. I do think the cylons have basic programming with the ability to make choices based on that programming. But there are lots of pieces that don't fit with that scenario.
But I love the thought of a Leoben who knows really something more than the humans... and I hate the thought that he is maybe only crazy.
Well, he might be crazy and still know more about the humans than he should. I do think there's at least an element of insanity in what he does, but it might be 'part of the plan.'
The scene was necessary for a better understanding of Kara. I think in season 4 she will be act more like a cylon-lover than as the Kara of the Mini-Serie or Season 1+2.
Interesting. It would fit with her being an outcast and distrusted, because the others believed her to be dead.
8. Leoben. No chance for Lee.
Yes, I agree. Sorry, Lee
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(The comment has been removed)
Oh, definitely. I thought he was terrifying. I wonder if they always had it in mind to make him such a manipulator, because we didn't see that side of him in the mini-series.
It's some of the later incarnations that really confuse me and I've put that down as a problem with the writing, not the character as originally created. Now I just might get why...
Good luck with that! *g*
I don't think I've ever mentioned this in a post before, but I was very surprised at the season three incarnation of Leoben. I really didn't expect to see him in the role of "wooer" (for lack of a better word); I did see the chemistry between his character and Kara in F&B, but I didn't expect the show to run with it in that particular direction. I did think it was watchable (which seems contrary to your own opinion, but we all have our preferences), but not what I would have predicted ( ... )
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