daybreak777 is allowed to laugh at this next statement--I might have a slight tendency to be blind to Leoben's worst faults. Just maybe. *g
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Ooh, questions! I love questions. Let me answer with my gut reactions first. I usually pore over my responses but not today. Today I'm indulging my own personal (with help from many) Leoben canon.
1. Does each model have a basic program, with individualized parts to help him work certain missions? Do the individual copies develop their own identities? Yes, and yes. I think there is a base program but each Cylon's experiences can change it. They can overcome programming like D'Anna and Sharon. I feel like Leoben was programmed to be intense and to fixate. On God, on destiny. I think that he and Kara have some connection. Not just this cycle that we're watching but back and back and back. He sees it, he remembers. She doesn't. And when I say 'he' I mean F&B and NC Leoben.
2. Does Leoben possess the ability to manifest in others' dreams? If so, why? If not, where did Roslin's dreams in F&B come from?No. I don't think so. I think that Roslin was on the chamalla and saw things. Like the snakes on the podium. She was prescient then
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5. Who is head!Leoben? What's his agenda? I don't know! Months and months and much discussion later and I have no idea! I know who I want him to be. I want the Cylon God to exist and be kindly. I want head!Leoben to be an instrument of this God the way that Six says she always is. I think Kara draped her messenger in Leoben's face because that fit for her. She needed to fight her destiny and she was used to fighting him. If she could accept the words from him, she would have truly accepted her destiny. Whoa. I just made that up but it sounds right to me.
6. In a (sweaty) boxing match, what would win: wee yet fiery ApolloBamceps or wiry cylon strength? Bamceps. He's wee but scrawy arms wouldn't have that much power. But Lee against Helo? Helo. But you got to admire Lee's gumption!
Blind Character Love is always okay. ;-) Who isn't blind to some character? Besides, you've come a long way, right? And hey, wait? Where are your answers to these questions? Now, I'm curious. And feel free to refute my crazy Leoben logic, this is fun. ;
6. In a (sweaty) boxing match, what would win: wee yet fiery ApolloBamceps or wiry cylon strength? Bamceps. He's wee but scrawy arms wouldn't have that much power. But Lee against Helo? Helo. But you got to admire Lee's gumption!
Yeah, but, cylon!strength. Twiggy little Sharon was stronger than the Bamcepts!
Little Sharon. I would love to see her kick ass more often, actually.
Now you make me want to see an Apollo-Leoben showdown! I bet Lee has few choice moves for him. Ooooh! He may not win but if Kara can take down Six at Six's kickass best (because Kara is awesomely crazy), then who knows what Lee can do?
Actually, I don't care who wins, I just want to see it. Bring it, BSG, bring it!
Sorry, I have to agree with Allie--the wiry cylon strength is going to win.
As for head!Leoben, I hope the show answers that question in season four. Because I'm with you, I don't know what he is.
I think Kara draped her messenger in Leoben's face because that fit for her. She needed to fight her destiny and she was used to fighting him. If she could accept the words from him, she would have truly accepted her destiny. Whoa. I just made that up but it sounds right to me.
I think that Roslin was on the chamalla and saw things. Like the snakes on the podium. She was prescient then. But I'm not sure, I should watch F&B again.
I've already said that for me, writing fic is my meta. Other people's fic can also convince of certain ideas; in this case, someone wrote that Leoben controlled Roslin's dreams and it was a 'Eureka!' moment for me. If you watch those scenes in F&B with that idea in mind, it works, considering what happens as a result of her dreams--him meeting both Kara and Roslin in person, getting the fleet separated. They would've been better off if he'd been executed before he could talk to anyone. Clearly I'm in the minority on this so far, though. *g*
I don't think each Leoben is this fixated on Kara. Connected to her yes, but this singlemindly? I don't think that is very Cylon-like. Cylons seem to be about the collective and consensus and not the individual. He's off the grid on this one. He's seen something real but is twisting it around for his own use. And unfortunately for him he's
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Within a couple of days of 'Maelstrom' airing, I called the whole paint!sex scene gratuitous. (Doesn't mean I didn't think it was hot, but I did feel it wasn't necessary.) Hmm . . . I've been thinking about this comment. While I do think there was an aspect of the scene that is gratuitous and male fantasy-esque (the writhing, Hotdog watching, ew), I don't think it's totally unnecessary
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she could've stabbed him a lot sooner than she did Yeah, she could have tried but I always have the feeling that Leoben always let her kill him. He had no problem knocking her out when all hell broke loose on NC. No, he needed the words. After that I don't think he cared what she did.
I guess my main complaint is the suddeness of it.Would it help to know in one of the podcasts, they were going to show Kara having nightmares in Collaborators, I think? They should have put that in, to show how her imprisonment affected her. I actually think in my own personal canon, I think I knew she was already having some inner turmoil over everything that happenened on N.C. Something in the way she reacted to Sam soon after had PTSD all over it. But then she apparently got over that by Unfinished Business time. Someone on that show likes writing Kara having lots of sex, dream or otherwise. Hmm. I've accepted as part of her personality that she sometimes uses sex in unhealthy ways
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Okay first: THE HIATUS IS KILLING ME! I'm overthinking things! And not actually coming to any conclusions! Augh! *starts banging head against desk*
Yeah, she could have tried but I always have the feeling that Leoben always let her kill him. He had no problem knocking her out when all hell broke loose on NC. No, he needed the words. After that I don't think he cared what she did.
*nods* I'm thinking anytime during/after the first kiss he would've let her go ahead and stab him... and yes, absolutely he let her kill him all those times before.
Would it help to know in one of the podcasts, they were going to show Kara having nightmares in Collaborators, I think? I wish they'd gone ahead and shown at least one nightmare before 'Maelstrom.' *sigh*
Someone on that show likes writing Kara having lots of sex, dream or otherwise. It's interesting too, because her sex scenes before were definitely less... fetished? Definitely less squick-inducing. But let's see. Season one, the Leegasm (sex with Baltar, with the unhealthy but
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OMG, look at this comment! There, there, Rose. *hugs* Here go watch this video, eat some cookies. It’s Kermit singing about one of your favorite Pinnochios and one of my favorite characters on Buffy. I thought it was perfect for both of us. You just can’t get overthinky about Kermit, it’s not possible. You download that. I was saving it for next week’s recs, but you need it now. While you watch that, I’ll tackle this comment here.
that's a whole lotta sexin' goin' on in season three.Yeah, but that's Kara. I love her and that's who she is. Sam accepted that and on some level Lee knows it too, but he can't accept it. That's why he stopped the Scar hookup (curses!) and even the raptor outmaking. Much discussion has gone into RDM's 'tomcatting' comment about Starbuck and Anders' line, "you think you were the first?" I choose to believe Sam was just baiting Lee with that, I mean Kara is not Ellen Tigh. (Shoot, on NC, even Ellen Tigh wasn't quite Ellen Tigh.) I also don't think that Sam and Kara promised fidelity. She doesn't seem
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The Leobens. Would the real Leoben stand up? Please! There was no real Leoben in that episode. Who is the real Leoben, anyway? He's not the same one, she keeps killing him. But both Maestrom Leobens came from Kara's mind somehow, in my opinion. I hope that Head!Leoben is maybe more but I have no proof of that. When I say I hope she faces Leoben, I mean a real Leoben in a flesh and blood body, one who remembers. Everything. The airlocking, the glass, the kiss, the stabbing, Kacey, what they were to each other before, and now. She needs to face all of that and not back down. I know my girl can do it. He won't make it easy for her but she can do it.
maybe by then that'll be okay with me but since I know the real Leoben a whole lot better than head!Leoben, I find him more interesting. I know you do. But he's scary. He has the power to hurt Kara. He has before and he will try again. Hurt her in her mind. Be careful what you wish for because real!Leoben could be that paint guy. He could be colder than that, I've seen it in him. I'll take
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First: KERMIT! FAITH! SPIKE! Hah, that was so weird, I loved it.
Much discussion has gone into RDM's 'tomcatting' comment about Starbuck and Anders' line, "you think you were the first?" I choose to believe Sam was just baiting Lee with that, I mean Kara is not Ellen Tigh. (Shoot, on NC, even Ellen Tigh wasn't quite Ellen Tigh.)
Yeah, I personally like the whole 'baiting' Lee theory; apparently Trucco and Sackhoff do, too. And it worked; Lee's face right after Sam said it was just all kinds of woobified.
I also don't think that Sam and Kara promised fidelity. She doesn't seem concerned with that little vow and frankly, neither does he.Hm. I can see that in Kara but I'm not sure I see it in Sam. And actually I wouldn't have said that before the whole Occupation arc; I'm guessing she really tried (before she got taken by Leoben) to be a good wife, though it wouldn't have been easy for her. Not because she's incapable of fidelity but because her first instinct is always to run away from whatever is making her face real
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First: KERMIT! FAITH! SPIKE! Hah, that was so weird, I loved it. Hee! I was a bit odd but so cute! Sometimes one needs a bit of humor. ;-) Glad you liked it.
After New Caprica, though, she redefined everything and Sam let her. He took what he could get. I agree. I think that while Dee and Sam loves their spouses after a while they both took what they could get. It's the end of the world, you compromise. I also said this (that fidelity didn't mean much) about Sam because at one point he encouraged Kara to follow her heart and go to Lee. He just wanted her to be happy. It's one thing Sam and I have in common.
(Btw way, Sam has changed too. I saw your comment about his morning after horniness cleverness. Morning afters surely changed for them. I like season 3 Sam better. He was so honest. I really respected that.)
*sniff* I know. Doesn't mean I have to like it. *sulks*I know, I know. I was a bit in denial too. Some people saw the chemistry and her reluctant attraction in F&B but not me. I saw it in Exodus Pt.2, but paint!sex was
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Some people saw the chemistry and her reluctant attraction in F&B but not me. I saw it in Exodus Pt.2, but paint!sex was the clincher. I don't know if I like it but I've accepted it. Hey, maybe if Kara's aware of this she can be even stronger when she faces him.
I think she'd have to face up to it in some way--'cause that was one heckuva dream and I doubt she's forgotten it. Though considering her death temporary setback, maybe she has forgotten, who knows?
Logic vs. emotions with this show? Logic goes out the window. I've learned that this week. Character love can trump all. It's probably why we all still watch the show. And while we are still waiting on it!
*nods* And waiting, and waiting. Hm. I really need to finish that Racetrack on Earth fic before season four ends up jossing it completely. *gingerly pokes muse*
1. Does each model have a basic program, with individualized parts to help him work certain missions? Do the individual copies develop their own identities?
Yes, and yes. I think there is a base program but each Cylon's experiences can change it. They can overcome programming like D'Anna and Sharon. I feel like Leoben was programmed to be intense and to fixate. On God, on destiny. I think that he and Kara have some connection. Not just this cycle that we're watching but back and back and back. He sees it, he remembers. She doesn't. And when I say 'he' I mean F&B and NC Leoben.
2. Does Leoben possess the ability to manifest in others' dreams? If so, why? If not, where did Roslin's dreams in F&B come from?No. I don't think so. I think that Roslin was on the chamalla and saw things. Like the snakes on the podium. She was prescient then ( ... )
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I don't know! Months and months and much discussion later and I have no idea! I know who I want him to be. I want the Cylon God to exist and be kindly. I want head!Leoben to be an instrument of this God the way that Six says she always is. I think Kara draped her messenger in Leoben's face because that fit for her. She needed to fight her destiny and she was used to fighting him. If she could accept the words from him, she would have truly accepted her destiny. Whoa. I just made that up but it sounds right to me.
6. In a (sweaty) boxing match, what would win: wee yet fiery ApolloBamceps or wiry cylon strength?
Bamceps. He's wee but scrawy arms wouldn't have that much power. But Lee against Helo? Helo. But you got to admire Lee's gumption!
Blind Character Love is always okay. ;-) Who isn't blind to some character? Besides, you've come a long way, right? And hey, wait? Where are your answers to these questions? Now, I'm curious. And feel free to refute my crazy Leoben logic, this is fun. ;
Reply
6. In a (sweaty) boxing match, what would win: wee yet fiery ApolloBamceps or wiry cylon strength?
Bamceps. He's wee but scrawy arms wouldn't have that much power. But Lee against Helo? Helo. But you got to admire Lee's gumption!
Yeah, but, cylon!strength. Twiggy little Sharon was stronger than the Bamcepts!
Reply
Now you make me want to see an Apollo-Leoben showdown! I bet Lee has few choice moves for him. Ooooh! He may not win but if Kara can take down Six at Six's kickass best (because Kara is awesomely crazy), then who knows what Lee can do?
Actually, I don't care who wins, I just want to see it. Bring it, BSG, bring it!
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She should! Actually, they were going to have her beat up Gaeta but thought better of it.
Actually, I don't care who wins, I just want to see it. Bring it, BSG, bring it!
You know I would be rooting for Lee in spite of myself!
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As for head!Leoben, I hope the show answers that question in season four. Because I'm with you, I don't know what he is.
I think Kara draped her messenger in Leoben's face because that fit for her. She needed to fight her destiny and she was used to fighting him. If she could accept the words from him, she would have truly accepted her destiny. Whoa. I just made that up but it sounds right to me.
Heh, sounds good to me!
(know-it-all icon is used ironically)
Reply
I've already said that for me, writing fic is my meta. Other people's fic can also convince of certain ideas; in this case, someone wrote that Leoben controlled Roslin's dreams and it was a 'Eureka!' moment for me. If you watch those scenes in F&B with that idea in mind, it works, considering what happens as a result of her dreams--him meeting both Kara and Roslin in person, getting the fleet separated. They would've been better off if he'd been executed before he could talk to anyone. Clearly I'm in the minority on this so far, though. *g*
I don't think each Leoben is this fixated on Kara. Connected to her yes, but this singlemindly? I don't think that is very Cylon-like. Cylons seem to be about the collective and consensus and not the individual. He's off the grid on this one. He's seen something real but is twisting it around for his own use. And unfortunately for him he's ( ... )
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Yeah, she could have tried but I always have the feeling that Leoben always let her kill him. He had no problem knocking her out when all hell broke loose on NC. No, he needed the words. After that I don't think he cared what she did.
I guess my main complaint is the suddeness of it.Would it help to know in one of the podcasts, they were going to show Kara having nightmares in Collaborators, I think? They should have put that in, to show how her imprisonment affected her. I actually think in my own personal canon, I think I knew she was already having some inner turmoil over everything that happenened on N.C. Something in the way she reacted to Sam soon after had PTSD all over it. But then she apparently got over that by Unfinished Business time. Someone on that show likes writing Kara having lots of sex, dream or otherwise. Hmm. I've accepted as part of her personality that she sometimes uses sex in unhealthy ways ( ... )
Reply
Yeah, she could have tried but I always have the feeling that Leoben always let her kill him. He had no problem knocking her out when all hell broke loose on NC. No, he needed the words. After that I don't think he cared what she did.
*nods* I'm thinking anytime during/after the first kiss he would've let her go ahead and stab him... and yes, absolutely he let her kill him all those times before.
Would it help to know in one of the podcasts, they were going to show Kara having nightmares in Collaborators, I think?
I wish they'd gone ahead and shown at least one nightmare before 'Maelstrom.' *sigh*
Someone on that show likes writing Kara having lots of sex, dream or otherwise. It's interesting too, because her sex scenes before were definitely less... fetished? Definitely less squick-inducing. But let's see. Season one, the Leegasm (sex with Baltar, with the unhealthy but ( ... )
Reply
that's a whole lotta sexin' goin' on in season three.Yeah, but that's Kara. I love her and that's who she is. Sam accepted that and on some level Lee knows it too, but he can't accept it. That's why he stopped the Scar hookup (curses!) and even the raptor outmaking. Much discussion has gone into RDM's 'tomcatting' comment about Starbuck and Anders' line, "you think you were the first?" I choose to believe Sam was just baiting Lee with that, I mean Kara is not Ellen Tigh. (Shoot, on NC, even Ellen Tigh wasn't quite Ellen Tigh.) I also don't think that Sam and Kara promised fidelity. She doesn't seem ( ... )
Reply
maybe by then that'll be okay with me but since I know the real Leoben a whole lot better than head!Leoben, I find him more interesting.
I know you do. But he's scary. He has the power to hurt Kara. He has before and he will try again. Hurt her in her mind. Be careful what you wish for because real!Leoben could be that paint guy. He could be colder than that, I've seen it in him. I'll take ( ... )
Reply
Much discussion has gone into RDM's 'tomcatting' comment about Starbuck and Anders' line, "you think you were the first?" I choose to believe Sam was just baiting Lee with that, I mean Kara is not Ellen Tigh. (Shoot, on NC, even Ellen Tigh wasn't quite Ellen Tigh.)
Yeah, I personally like the whole 'baiting' Lee theory; apparently Trucco and Sackhoff do, too. And it worked; Lee's face right after Sam said it was just all kinds of woobified.
I also don't think that Sam and Kara promised fidelity. She doesn't seem concerned with that little vow and frankly, neither does he.Hm. I can see that in Kara but I'm not sure I see it in Sam. And actually I wouldn't have said that before the whole Occupation arc; I'm guessing she really tried (before she got taken by Leoben) to be a good wife, though it wouldn't have been easy for her. Not because she's incapable of fidelity but because her first instinct is always to run away from whatever is making her face real ( ... )
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Hee! I was a bit odd but so cute! Sometimes one needs a bit of humor. ;-) Glad you liked it.
After New Caprica, though, she redefined everything and Sam let her. He took what he could get.
I agree. I think that while Dee and Sam loves their spouses after a while they both took what they could get. It's the end of the world, you compromise. I also said this (that fidelity didn't mean much) about Sam because at one point he encouraged Kara to follow her heart and go to Lee. He just wanted her to be happy. It's one thing Sam and I have in common.
(Btw way, Sam has changed too. I saw your comment about his morning after horniness cleverness. Morning afters surely changed for them. I like season 3 Sam better. He was so honest. I really respected that.)
*sniff* I know. Doesn't mean I have to like it. *sulks*I know, I know. I was a bit in denial too. Some people saw the chemistry and her reluctant attraction in F&B but not me. I saw it in Exodus Pt.2, but paint!sex was ( ... )
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I think she'd have to face up to it in some way--'cause that was one heckuva dream and I doubt she's forgotten it. Though considering her death temporary setback, maybe she has forgotten, who knows?
Logic vs. emotions with this show? Logic goes out the window. I've learned that this week. Character love can trump all. It's probably why we all still watch the show. And while we are still waiting on it!
*nods* And waiting, and waiting. Hm. I really need to finish that Racetrack on Earth fic before season four ends up jossing it completely. *gingerly pokes muse*
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