daybreak777 is allowed to laugh at this next statement--I might have a slight tendency to be blind to Leoben's worst faults. Just maybe. *g
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The Leobens. Would the real Leoben stand up? Please! There was no real Leoben in that episode. Who is the real Leoben, anyway? He's not the same one, she keeps killing him. But both Maestrom Leobens came from Kara's mind somehow, in my opinion. I hope that Head!Leoben is maybe more but I have no proof of that. When I say I hope she faces Leoben, I mean a real Leoben in a flesh and blood body, one who remembers. Everything. The airlocking, the glass, the kiss, the stabbing, Kacey, what they were to each other before, and now. She needs to face all of that and not back down. I know my girl can do it. He won't make it easy for her but she can do it.
maybe by then that'll be okay with me but since I know the real Leoben a whole lot better than head!Leoben, I find him more interesting. I know you do. But he's scary. He has the power to hurt Kara. He has before and he will try again. Hurt her in her mind. Be careful what you wish for because real!Leoben could be that paint guy. He could be colder than that, I've seen it in him. I'll take kindly Head!Leoben over that guy for Kara to face down any day. Not as interesting but infinitely safer for her. Whichever Leoben shows up, I think she'll be ready for him. I have a lot of faith in her.
One more thing that might make you even more thinky. During L.A.W. looking for meta, I found these interview scans. It seems as if Callum may have played the Maelstrom Leobens as the real Leoben. But maybe not. Let's not let that confuse us! Actors have to do what they need to to play a scene. What we got, was those guys were not Leobens. Sometimes I think we as fans, know too much. Doesn't stop me from sharing it with you though. ;-)
I don't know if all this was helpful but the vid is cute, isn't it?
First: KERMIT! FAITH! SPIKE! Hah, that was so weird, I loved it.
Much discussion has gone into RDM's 'tomcatting' comment about Starbuck and Anders' line, "you think you were the first?" I choose to believe Sam was just baiting Lee with that, I mean Kara is not Ellen Tigh. (Shoot, on NC, even Ellen Tigh wasn't quite Ellen Tigh.)
Yeah, I personally like the whole 'baiting' Lee theory; apparently Trucco and Sackhoff do, too. And it worked; Lee's face right after Sam said it was just all kinds of woobified.
I also don't think that Sam and Kara promised fidelity. She doesn't seem concerned with that little vow and frankly, neither does he.
Hm. I can see that in Kara but I'm not sure I see it in Sam. And actually I wouldn't have said that before the whole Occupation arc; I'm guessing she really tried (before she got taken by Leoben) to be a good wife, though it wouldn't have been easy for her. Not because she's incapable of fidelity but because her first instinct is always to run away from whatever is making her face real intimacy. After New Caprica, though, she redefined everything and Sam let her. He took what he could get. As far as strategies go (for getting her back), it wasn't great but there weren't many options, either.
Any scene with Kara and Leoben romantically would have some issues with consent. The guy imprisoned her. She's not just going to fall willingly into bed with him. Doesn't means she doesn't have attraction to him (see: writhing and gasping) but doesn't mean she really wants to do it, either.
*sniff* I know. Doesn't mean I have to like it. *sulks*
I think I'm going to have to revise who I say is my favorite character. Because clearly it's not Kara if Leoben's around. He's like a trump card over my Kara-compassion. During 'Collaborators' for example, Kara's being horrible to Felix and I feel bad for both of them, but especially Kara--even though Felix should get more of my sympathy. But put Leoben onscreen and I don't care what happens to Kara nearly as much as I want to see Leoben playing mind games. So the paint!scene just wasn't what I wanted as a Leoben-fan, because that wasn't really him. And it wasn't what I wanted as a Kara fan because what I like about her is how she never gives up, but she did that time. She might run away but if she sticks around, she keeps trying and trying... and she just let that all fall away that time.
Speaking of trump cards--emotion wins out over cool logic, because now I'm getting to the point where logically the scene makes a certain degree of sense. But emotionally I just don't want to accept it. I think it's why I'm a better Kara-fan than Lee-fan because Lee often (not always, though) makes sense to me, but logic isn't what makes me prefer Kara over Lee.
*headdesk* I'm going on too long to fit this in one comment box.
First: KERMIT! FAITH! SPIKE! Hah, that was so weird, I loved it. Hee! I was a bit odd but so cute! Sometimes one needs a bit of humor. ;-) Glad you liked it.
After New Caprica, though, she redefined everything and Sam let her. He took what he could get. I agree. I think that while Dee and Sam loves their spouses after a while they both took what they could get. It's the end of the world, you compromise. I also said this (that fidelity didn't mean much) about Sam because at one point he encouraged Kara to follow her heart and go to Lee. He just wanted her to be happy. It's one thing Sam and I have in common.
(Btw way, Sam has changed too. I saw your comment about his morning after horniness cleverness. Morning afters surely changed for them. I like season 3 Sam better. He was so honest. I really respected that.)
*sniff* I know. Doesn't mean I have to like it. *sulks* I know, I know. I was a bit in denial too. Some people saw the chemistry and her reluctant attraction in F&B but not me. I saw it in Exodus Pt.2, but paint!sex was the clincher. I don't know if I like it but I've accepted it. Hey, maybe if Kara's aware of this she can be even stronger when she faces him.
I think I'm going to have to revise who I say is my favorite character. Oh noes! You don't want to revise! You really don't, do you? You care about her, you're just fascinated by him. He's hypnotic like that. But you're not fascninated enough to want him to hurt her mind? You don't want him to win. Besides he's not going to. Remember paint!sex was a dream. Not real. She hasn't given up. She just had to realize some truths about herself to fight another day.
I'm getting to the point where logically the scene makes a certain degree of sense. But emotionally I just don't want to accept it. Ah, emotions. I think I've figured out the scene logically. But emotionally? Emotionally my girl is hurting and messed up and while she and Leoben have that chemistry, I just worry for her the whole time I watch it. Part of me likes to see them together and the other part of me flinches the entire time. That's always been my emotional reading of the scene. I think that was intended and damn them, it worked.
Logic vs. emotions with this show? Logic goes out the window. I've learned that this week. Character love can trump all. It's probably why we all still watch the show. And while we are still waiting on it!
Some people saw the chemistry and her reluctant attraction in F&B but not me. I saw it in Exodus Pt.2, but paint!sex was the clincher. I don't know if I like it but I've accepted it. Hey, maybe if Kara's aware of this she can be even stronger when she faces him.
I think she'd have to face up to it in some way--'cause that was one heckuva dream and I doubt she's forgotten it. Though considering her death temporary setback, maybe she has forgotten, who knows?
Logic vs. emotions with this show? Logic goes out the window. I've learned that this week. Character love can trump all. It's probably why we all still watch the show. And while we are still waiting on it!
*nods* And waiting, and waiting. Hm. I really need to finish that Racetrack on Earth fic before season four ends up jossing it completely. *gingerly pokes muse*
(Gosh, for a moment Leoben reminds me of Pepe Le Pew. Relentless. Trying to cheer you a bit, with cartoon character. :-))
Heh. I always thought he was a bit creepy and clueless... which really, really fits this scenario. *grins*
I hope that Head!Leoben is maybe more but I have no proof of that.
The logical side of me hopes that he's more, too.
maybe by then that'll be okay with me but since I know the real Leoben a whole lot better than head!Leoben, I find him more interesting. I know you do. But he's scary. He has the power to hurt Kara. He has before and he will try again. Hurt her in her mind. Be careful what you wish for because real!Leoben could be that paint guy. He could be colder than that, I've seen it in him. I'll take kindly Head!Leoben over that guy for Kara to face down any day. Not as interesting but infinitely safer for her. Whichever Leoben shows up, I think she'll be ready for him. I have a lot of faith in her.
Again, yes, logically, it would be better for Kara if head!Leoben is around, not the real thing. My brain stares logic in the face and says, "Who wanted you?!" See, I knew if I found a theme, I'd be able to figure this out. My theme: I don't like logic. I like Leoben. *laughs*
Did you ever see the movie Labyrinth? I'm imagining Kara facing down Leoben in a way that resembles Sara facing down the Goblin King and telling him "You have no power over me." Which would totally work for me, because so much of what he did preyed on fears and feelings that were there a long time before Kara ever met Leoben / Sara ever met the Goblin King.
Cheesy 80's movie references FTW! (And yes, I had a huge David Bowie/Goblin King crush during my early teen years. Heh.)
During L.A.W. looking for meta, I found these interview scans. It seems as if Callum may have played the Maelstrom Leobens as the real Leoben. But maybe not. Let's not let that confuse us! Actors have to do what they need to to play a scene. What we got, was those guys were not Leobens. Sometimes I think we as fans, know too much. Doesn't stop me from sharing it with you though. ;-)
Those were interesting. Because once I got past the whole 'oooooh, CKR, shiny' phase of 'Maelstrom' I'd have to say that his head!Leoben felt very, very different from the other one. But they could all be parts of the same whole composite--each model having a different piece of the whole personality construct.
My brain stares logic in the face and says, "Who wanted you?!" Hee! Hi, Blind Love girl. But he boiled puppies! Hee. You just love him. It's almost unconditional. You, who are usually so toughlove. But despite this I know if you ever had to choose between Kara and the real Leoben, I think I know who you'd choose. But maybe I'm wrong. Most of the time you're quite logical. But not with this guy!
I'm imagining Kara facing down Leoben in a way that resembles Sara facing down the Goblin King and telling him "You have no power over me." YES. I vaguely remember Mia Sara in this movie. She was dressed in black. She seemed to have given into darkness but, no. No. Our girls will win out. I have no doubt in this.
they could all be parts of the same whole composite--each model having a different piece of the whole personality construct. Who knows? It doesn't really matter. Her interludes with Leoben in Maelstrom enabled her to go into the mandala and be changed. She was strong before, I think this will make her even stronger. All the Leobens have been pushing her toward her destiny and she's going to be ready when she faces it. Leoben, whichever Leoben, is going to be surprised, I think.
(Hmm. Billy Idol, David Bowie, Spike, CKR, I'm seeing a type here. Ginga Ninja doesn't quite fit in but there is a definite type . . . ;-))
I know if you ever had to choose between Kara and the real Leoben, I think I know who you'd choose. But maybe I'm wrong. Most of the time you're quite logical. But not with this guy!
Yeah, I'd choose Kara, but I'd really want a nice juicy scene with Leoben as well.
Hmm. Billy Idol, David Bowie, Spike, CKR, I'm seeing a type here. Ginga Ninja doesn't quite fit in but there is a definite type
Yeah, older blond guys seems to be a theme. (And nope, Ginger Ninja doesn't fit that type. Just shows that I can be flexible. ;-)
Yeah, I'd choose Kara, but I'd really want a nice juicy scene with Leoben as well. That’s what I was hoping you’d say! And who doesn’t want a scene with them? They are compelling together. And she’s going to kick his ass. Maybe in his mind for a change. Oooh!
maybe by then that'll be okay with me but since I know the real Leoben a whole lot better than head!Leoben, I find him more interesting.
I know you do. But he's scary. He has the power to hurt Kara. He has before and he will try again. Hurt her in her mind. Be careful what you wish for because real!Leoben could be that paint guy. He could be colder than that, I've seen it in him. I'll take kindly Head!Leoben over that guy for Kara to face down any day. Not as interesting but infinitely safer for her. Whichever Leoben shows up, I think she'll be ready for him. I have a lot of faith in her.
One more thing that might make you even more thinky. During L.A.W. looking for meta, I found these interview scans. It seems as if Callum may have played the Maelstrom Leobens as the real Leoben. But maybe not. Let's not let that confuse us! Actors have to do what they need to to play a scene. What we got, was those guys were not Leobens. Sometimes I think we as fans, know too much. Doesn't stop me from sharing it with you though. ;-)
I don't know if all this was helpful but the vid is cute, isn't it?
Reply
Much discussion has gone into RDM's 'tomcatting' comment about Starbuck and Anders' line, "you think you were the first?" I choose to believe Sam was just baiting Lee with that, I mean Kara is not Ellen Tigh. (Shoot, on NC, even Ellen Tigh wasn't quite Ellen Tigh.)
Yeah, I personally like the whole 'baiting' Lee theory; apparently Trucco and Sackhoff do, too. And it worked; Lee's face right after Sam said it was just all kinds of woobified.
I also don't think that Sam and Kara promised fidelity. She doesn't seem concerned with that little vow and frankly, neither does he.
Hm. I can see that in Kara but I'm not sure I see it in Sam. And actually I wouldn't have said that before the whole Occupation arc; I'm guessing she really tried (before she got taken by Leoben) to be a good wife, though it wouldn't have been easy for her. Not because she's incapable of fidelity but because her first instinct is always to run away from whatever is making her face real intimacy. After New Caprica, though, she redefined everything and Sam let her. He took what he could get. As far as strategies go (for getting her back), it wasn't great but there weren't many options, either.
Any scene with Kara and Leoben romantically would have some issues with consent. The guy imprisoned her. She's not just going to fall willingly into bed with him. Doesn't means she doesn't have attraction to him (see: writhing and gasping) but doesn't mean she really wants to do it, either.
*sniff* I know. Doesn't mean I have to like it. *sulks*
I think I'm going to have to revise who I say is my favorite character. Because clearly it's not Kara if Leoben's around. He's like a trump card over my Kara-compassion. During 'Collaborators' for example, Kara's being horrible to Felix and I feel bad for both of them, but especially Kara--even though Felix should get more of my sympathy. But put Leoben onscreen and I don't care what happens to Kara nearly as much as I want to see Leoben playing mind games. So the paint!scene just wasn't what I wanted as a Leoben-fan, because that wasn't really him. And it wasn't what I wanted as a Kara fan because what I like about her is how she never gives up, but she did that time. She might run away but if she sticks around, she keeps trying and trying... and she just let that all fall away that time.
Speaking of trump cards--emotion wins out over cool logic, because now I'm getting to the point where logically the scene makes a certain degree of sense. But emotionally I just don't want to accept it. I think it's why I'm a better Kara-fan than Lee-fan because Lee often (not always, though) makes sense to me, but logic isn't what makes me prefer Kara over Lee.
*headdesk* I'm going on too long to fit this in one comment box.
Reply
Hee! I was a bit odd but so cute! Sometimes one needs a bit of humor. ;-) Glad you liked it.
After New Caprica, though, she redefined everything and Sam let her. He took what he could get.
I agree. I think that while Dee and Sam loves their spouses after a while they both took what they could get. It's the end of the world, you compromise. I also said this (that fidelity didn't mean much) about Sam because at one point he encouraged Kara to follow her heart and go to Lee. He just wanted her to be happy. It's one thing Sam and I have in common.
(Btw way, Sam has changed too. I saw your comment about his morning after horniness cleverness. Morning afters surely changed for them. I like season 3 Sam better. He was so honest. I really respected that.)
*sniff* I know. Doesn't mean I have to like it. *sulks*
I know, I know. I was a bit in denial too. Some people saw the chemistry and her reluctant attraction in F&B but not me. I saw it in Exodus Pt.2, but paint!sex was the clincher. I don't know if I like it but I've accepted it. Hey, maybe if Kara's aware of this she can be even stronger when she faces him.
I think I'm going to have to revise who I say is my favorite character.
Oh noes! You don't want to revise! You really don't, do you? You care about her, you're just fascinated by him. He's hypnotic like that. But you're not fascninated enough to want him to hurt her mind? You don't want him to win. Besides he's not going to. Remember paint!sex was a dream. Not real. She hasn't given up. She just had to realize some truths about herself to fight another day.
I'm getting to the point where logically the scene makes a certain degree of sense. But emotionally I just don't want to accept it.
Ah, emotions. I think I've figured out the scene logically. But emotionally? Emotionally my girl is hurting and messed up and while she and Leoben have that chemistry, I just worry for her the whole time I watch it. Part of me likes to see them together and the other part of me flinches the entire time. That's always been my emotional reading of the scene. I think that was intended and damn them, it worked.
Logic vs. emotions with this show? Logic goes out the window. I've learned that this week. Character love can trump all. It's probably why we all still watch the show. And while we are still waiting on it!
Reply
I think she'd have to face up to it in some way--'cause that was one heckuva dream and I doubt she's forgotten it. Though considering her death temporary setback, maybe she has forgotten, who knows?
Logic vs. emotions with this show? Logic goes out the window. I've learned that this week. Character love can trump all. It's probably why we all still watch the show. And while we are still waiting on it!
*nods* And waiting, and waiting. Hm. I really need to finish that Racetrack on Earth fic before season four ends up jossing it completely. *gingerly pokes muse*
Reply
Heh. I always thought he was a bit creepy and clueless... which really, really fits this scenario. *grins*
I hope that Head!Leoben is maybe more but I have no proof of that.
The logical side of me hopes that he's more, too.
maybe by then that'll be okay with me but since I know the real Leoben a whole lot better than head!Leoben, I find him more interesting.
I know you do. But he's scary. He has the power to hurt Kara. He has before and he will try again. Hurt her in her mind. Be careful what you wish for because real!Leoben could be that paint guy. He could be colder than that, I've seen it in him. I'll take kindly Head!Leoben over that guy for Kara to face down any day. Not as interesting but infinitely safer for her. Whichever Leoben shows up, I think she'll be ready for him. I have a lot of faith in her.
Again, yes, logically, it would be better for Kara if head!Leoben is around, not the real thing. My brain stares logic in the face and says, "Who wanted you?!" See, I knew if I found a theme, I'd be able to figure this out. My theme: I don't like logic. I like Leoben. *laughs*
Did you ever see the movie Labyrinth? I'm imagining Kara facing down Leoben in a way that resembles Sara facing down the Goblin King and telling him "You have no power over me." Which would totally work for me, because so much of what he did preyed on fears and feelings that were there a long time before Kara ever met Leoben / Sara ever met the Goblin King.
Cheesy 80's movie references FTW! (And yes, I had a huge David Bowie/Goblin King crush during my early teen years. Heh.)
During L.A.W. looking for meta, I found these interview scans. It seems as if Callum may have played the Maelstrom Leobens as the real Leoben. But maybe not. Let's not let that confuse us! Actors have to do what they need to to play a scene. What we got, was those guys were not Leobens. Sometimes I think we as fans, know too much. Doesn't stop me from sharing it with you though. ;-)
Those were interesting. Because once I got past the whole 'oooooh, CKR, shiny' phase of 'Maelstrom' I'd have to say that his head!Leoben felt very, very different from the other one. But they could all be parts of the same whole composite--each model having a different piece of the whole personality construct.
Reply
Hee! Hi, Blind Love girl. But he boiled puppies! Hee. You just love him. It's almost unconditional. You, who are usually so toughlove. But despite this I know if you ever had to choose between Kara and the real Leoben, I think I know who you'd choose. But maybe I'm wrong. Most of the time you're quite logical. But not with this guy!
I'm imagining Kara facing down Leoben in a way that resembles Sara facing down the Goblin King and telling him "You have no power over me."
YES. I vaguely remember Mia Sara in this movie. She was dressed in black. She seemed to have given into darkness but, no. No. Our girls will win out. I have no doubt in this.
they could all be parts of the same whole composite--each model having a different piece of the whole personality construct.
Who knows? It doesn't really matter. Her interludes with Leoben in Maelstrom enabled her to go into the mandala and be changed. She was strong before, I think this will make her even stronger. All the Leobens have been pushing her toward her destiny and she's going to be ready when she faces it. Leoben, whichever Leoben, is going to be surprised, I think.
(Hmm. Billy Idol, David Bowie, Spike, CKR, I'm seeing a type here. Ginga Ninja doesn't quite fit in but there is a definite type . . . ;-))
Reply
Yeah, I'd choose Kara, but I'd really want a nice juicy scene with Leoben as well.
Hmm. Billy Idol, David Bowie, Spike, CKR, I'm seeing a type here. Ginga Ninja doesn't quite fit in but there is a definite type
Yeah, older blond guys seems to be a theme. (And nope, Ginger Ninja doesn't fit that type. Just shows that I can be flexible. ;-)
Reply
That’s what I was hoping you’d say! And who doesn’t want a scene with them? They are compelling together. And she’s going to kick his ass. Maybe in his mind for a change. Oooh!
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