Dragon*Con panel recap - Beyond Binaries 201

[rm]

This panel was the "after-dark" sequel to the Beyond Binaries 101 panel I was not a part of. Other than a bit of comedy, by and large the content of this panel didn't really seem to need to be "after-dark" -- third-gender topics are not, and should not be, inherently adults only -- but I'm not sure anyone knew where the panel was going to go when

Comments

[ckd]

Carolyn Ives Gilman's Halfway Human comes to mind as an example.

[ladyaelfwynn]

I attended and generally thought it was a good panel and agree with your criticisms, for the most part.

I got tired of the dismissiveness of some of the other panelists when it came to getting stuff published and in general thought the two who appeared to be cis men were actually superfluous. They did not add enough interesting to the conversation to merit their inclusion.

I think the fact that they are older and more connected to old school publishing made them unaware of just what sort of impact the internet has had on story telling and just how diverse has gotten and is continuing to get.

Sorry I didn't pop by afterwards and say hey but I'd been fighting dehydration and a miraine much of the day and was wiped. In general, I thought all off the panels of yours I attended were interesting.

[yamx]

I agree with your general point, but I have a question:

The assumption that third-gendered characters must be alien was a problem. Trans people, queer people, genderqueer people, intersex people, asexual people, third-gendered people exist, right here, on earth, right now, and are human, and in a well-executed story can be narrators that are effective, plausible and easy to relate to.

While I'm, again, grateful you realize asexuals exist, I'm not quite sure why you included us in this list. While there certainly are asexual people who are also third gendered/defy the gender binary, many (I don't think any studies have been done, so I'm not even going to try to guess percentages) do indeed identify with one of the traditional genders.

I don't think being asexual inherently makes someone third-gendered--they can co-occur, but don't have to. It's entirely possible to be asexual and cis. Or are you saying that the fact that I happen not to feel sexual attraction inherently makes me less female? Because I'd object to that.

[rm]

I did not mean to imply that. Rather, the panel ranged all over the place in terms of trying to figure out what we were talking about: was the panel intended to be about non-heterosexual content or non-male/female content? We also sort of walked into with different assumptions, none of which matched anyone else's assumptions, and there were points where I at least, felt like I'd bring up anything, to get us out of talking about M/F relationships, which is what kept happening over and over again.

I did not mean to in any way question your or anyone elses gender by that listing, and will remove the reference, perhaps making clear that this was also touched on in the panel elsewhere in another paragraph. I apologize for the offense.

[yamx]

Oh, don't worry, I'm not offended. For one thing, I wouldn't consider being called non-cis offensive, just inaccurate. Also, I was pretty sure you'd just worded something ambiguously, because I really don't see you as someone who'd try to tell me what gender identity I can have. *g* I just wanted to make clear the not-necessarily-relatedness of the concepts, for other readers as well.

I wasn't at the panel, but I can definitely imagine how something like that would be likely to go all over the place. Thanks for the write-up, it's very interesting. :)

[rm]

Yay! Cool. I torture sentences to death, so it's very easy for me to be a) unclear and b) an asshole without meaning to be. (of course, I can also c) be an asshole without realizing why I'm an asshole, but that was not this day).

I honestly wish I had a transcript of that panel. It was so remarkably emblematic of the anxieties in the SF/F lit community about marginalization, old vs. new publishing, diversity, sex, that it was astounding. I don't know if we got anything done, but it was a pretty amazing live-action demonstration.

[tsarina]

I wish I had thought to bring this up at the panel, but Caitlin Kiernan has written some fantastic hard sci-fi with queer characters. Her collection A is for Alien is quite good. she's also written a lot of terrifying/fantastical/speculative fiction that uses queer characters as protagonists. Her work is pretty challenging and diverse.

just mental doodling

[jeliza]

In a sf context, I had been thinking of asexual as possibly either a gender identity or an orientation -- Bone Dance being the book that jumps to mind immediately (is there anyway to say that without being crazy spoilery? Gah.) Perhaps a better label for such a character would be ungendered?

Re: just mental doodling

[rm]

I have not read that book, but I've definitely seen ungendered characters in fiction, so yeah, that goes on the list too. Unfortunately I think it also means we have to discuss that AWFUL Star Trek episode again (which came up during the panel to much hilarity).

Re: just mental doodling

[jeliza]

I apparently, probably thankfully, missed that one. :) I do recommend Bone Dance, though it's been a few years since I read it (not surprising, since it was published in 91.)

Re: just mental doodling

[yamx]

Is that the one where Riker falls in love and "having a gender" is used a a thinly (REALLY thinly) disguised metaphor for homosexuality... and then things get worse?

About the only thing I liked about that ep was that it showcased the strength of Worf's friendship...