The Skills or the Talent

[reshelved]

I don't actually understand what they ("they" being people like Bruce and Babs) mean when they say "She's not like us"[1] or "You don't have the skills or the talent"[2]. While they undervalue the person in question and set the speakers up as superior, the phrases just seem--empty and arbitrary. Like the core Bats are weakly trying to justify

Comments

[katarik]

Also, the reason he fired her as Robin? Same thing EVERY ROBIN BEFORE HER did. Including Tim, who was told he'd be fired if he disobeyed an order, did so, and was in fact praised.

I know Batman isn't, actually, a sexist jerk. But I'll be darned if comics don't seem to make me want to think he is.

*randomly commenting on things via clicking around in your journal after reading good fic*

[reshelved]

Same thing EVERY ROBIN BEFORE HER did.

No kidding! Although, granted, he did fire all the Robins who aren't Tim for it. (And Tim's kind of a special case, in that--er. I don't want to say that he sucks at being Robin, but. I kind of do. Even Bruce seems to want him more as a Batman-Oracle hybrid than as a Robin.) It's just that Steph's at least number three on this thing. He's had two Robins before her who did not respond to being fired by saying, "You're right, Bruce, and I will now retire to a civilian life!" And he thinks this is going to change now... why?

I probably wouldn't be so annoyed about this if my happy-place comics weren't pretty much all ones in which Batman is cool with Steph. :D

[katarik]

The weird thing about Steph and Tim... Steph was actually a *better* Robin than Tim. Tim might've been a better heir, but Steph was a better *Robin*.

YES. It's... dude, Steph totally was Cass' Jason, and *Bruce's* Jason hadn't quit. What on earth made him think Steph would, especially since Spoiler didn't even come close to being Batman's to end?

*clings to your icon*

[reshelved]

Yeah, I definitely agree about that. (And, man, Tim would've loved Steph-Robin. He's as invested in Robin-as-icon as I am! :D) Tim's my dead-last Robin, as much as I like him as a kid.

You really have to assume Bruce's emotions are getting in the way of his judgment (like monkeycrackmary says here: "Remember that blind spot? The Jason-shaped one where sensible Bat-thoughts go to perish?") not to consider it unforgivably dense, and it's still. Sometimes I shake my fist at the page!

[reshelved]

Yes, agreed on Tim's Bat-ness. Maybe he can be Batgirl while Cass is away on that secret mission from Batman where she has to pretend to be evil? What denial? I do agree that the reason Batman is both more and less harsh on Tim is that he's not exactly expecting Robin there. It might help if someone told Tim that! Although maybe not, given how "??? NO" he is over becoming Batman right now.

What I meant to say is that while I don't think Steph could ever be as...not good, really but, efficient, maybe, at this as Tim... she was a better Robin.Actually. I noticed a lot of "ARGH WTF STEPH AS ROBIN NO" feeling, and wondered if people like Steph as Robin better these days, now that it doesn't threaten Tim. :D (My first Robin was Dick, not Tim, and I feel very much like Dick is the One True Robin; I can only imagine that people who started out with Tim would feel similarly about him.) Like, if it was a kneejerk reaction rather than a real objection

[reshelved]

anything that threatens him... is not liked by me
Yeah. My favourite characters have historically been antagonists, against the hero in some other way, comic relief, or the love interest who won't be chosen in the end--I seldom love the creator's darling--so I'm used to their getting the short end of the stick. But my feelings about Batman (for instance) are closely inversely related to how much of a dick he's currently being to Robin, Steph, or any TT/YJ kid, which is exactly the same thing. :D

I'm glad it's just the replacement thing, actually, because it's almost definitely not just you. I mean, I'm sure some people (inexplicably!) hate Steph or Steph-as-Robin, but it can't be as many people as it seemed.

After War Games started (and even more now), I don't think that's true anymore.I'll take your word for it. Er, and read that sincerely rather than dismissively, :D. Tim's got way more opaque to me in terms of motivation, as he's grown older, than pretty much any other character

[amarin_rose]

Batman doesn't think he's a good person? *blinks* Okay, you see, I could beleive his yin/yang thing with Superman if I didn't vividely recall when B had to talk S down from killing Lex Luthor. And yet B gave the Joker CPR.

[reshelved]

Yeah, Batman--my read of it is that he mistrusts Superman because of the sheer amount of power Superman holds (i.e. if he goes bad, he's got a lot to work with), but he doesn't think he's actually a bad guy. If he didn't think Superman was basically good, how could he justify letting him continue to operate? But he knows all of the awful things he himself thinks and has done--he desperately wants to kill the Joker, he's brought kids into a life that killed them--and totally overemphasises their significance in his mind because he's a melodramatic dork. :D And also, possibly, wants to make sure he doesn't fall from grace by remembering how easy it could be for him.

[fiercynn]

I really like and agree with a lot of this post, but this was what struck me the most:

Also, I really can't put into words just how wrong it is to try to make decisions about Steph based on what Jason might have done, or what he might have done to save Jason. (Would Bruce want Dick and Babs to treat him the way they want to treat Helena? They see personality parallels there!)

I've never considered this before! Excellent point.

[reshelved]

And I'll consider Jason & Steph more similar to each other than Helena & Bruce when we find out that Jason got a "Hey, consequences!" wake-up call like Steph's pregnancy and handled it as maturely, and thus was totally at the same point of development as Steph (whatever their core similarity). :D