Poll Time! What's it all about, Buffy? redux

[rebcake]

Perhaps I'm beating a dead horse, but here goes.

I was fascinated by the huge differences in how people perceive the way Buffy and Spike start their "relationship". I'm trying to find the crux of the divergence, and here is one possibility that came to mind:

Poll I give up! (The Buffy Edition)
Yes, yes, we know it was a combination of factors. But which was the primary motivator for

Comments

[baudown]

Yes, she desires is to feel something in order to combat the feeling of numbness and deadness that makes up her grief. She wants to be punished for her anger towards her friends for bringing her back. To be punished for being"wrong." She desires to experience fully her own darkness -- something she's been seeking for a long, long time, and which Spike has long represented to her. And she's of course seeking sexual gratification. I think she and Spike have been attracted to each other from the first moments of their acquaintance, although neither of them knew it at the time. Just watch their interaction s in School Hard -- Spike stalking her in a very sexual way, Buffy proposing hand to hand combat rather than weapons -- it's there from the start

[rebcake]

Interesting points. It might be a minority opinion, but I too think that the attraction has been there on both sides for a long time. ;-)

It does not look like she's giving a lot of thought to what Spike might want here. I'm pretty sure she thought "he's a big boy" once she found out he wasn't defenseless, and figured he'd take care of himself. And really, she's already got a lot of responsibilities that she's failing at, so why would she add Spike's feelings to her to-do list? It's probably a relief to have someone she doesn't have to take care of. (She thinks.)

[aycheb]

Looking at the somewhat one-sided results to this poll, I think it’s fair to say it hasn’t really succeeded in its aim - to find the crux of the divergences in how people perceive the start of the B/S relationship. Either a case of asking the wrong question or the wrong people, possibly a bit of both. The latter may change now it’s been linked to the herald but while people have different opinions on what Buffy was succumbing to at the end of the episode, I’m pretty sure the real points of divergence come earlier. The current debates started in Mark Watches but Mark never claimed that Spike raped Buffy and that case was only seriously made by one commentator. Mark’s great provocation was to talk about Spike beating Buffy. A lot of beating goes on in this episode, physical and verbal and I think it’s how people interpret that which determines which side of the great Spuffy divide they fall. Rahirah’s question would probably make for the most informative poll. “Who do you believe was the awfuller, Buffy to Spike or Spike to Buffy?” Or

[rebcake]

I must agree that the poll has not really illuminated the point of divergence. And I thought I was really onto something! Tsk.

I actually have an older poll about some other points of contention in the episode, and those results are more wide-ranging. That can be found here:

http://fantas-magoria.livejournal.com/335454.html

But it doesn't clarify for me if there is a particular set of world views that can explain why this situation excites such different readings. And probably that's because there is no such straightforward solution.

I just read a really insightful meta on this period that posits that we are shown what the characters think are their problems, but that those aren't necessarily the actual problems. It makes it tricky for the audience, because hitherto we could usually be assured that characters were correct in their interpretations of events, or would be by episode or arc end. There is no such assurance in this season. It's a fairly radical shift in

[rebcake]

I don't know. I'd say that's part of what is going on, but not the whole story. I don't know if it's possible to capture the whole story, which is probably why we've got millions of words of fanfic making the attempt.

Oh, and here's a link to that meta:

http://coracle33.livejournal.com/915.html

Enjoy!

[rebcake]

Yes, I am a stern hostess. If comments get all combative, I screen 'em. I am trying really hard not to let these types of discussions fall into the old, bad "lines are drawn" territory. Certain accusations, like "Buffy Basher" or "Spike Apologist" (and vice versa) don't add any clarity or freshness to the conversation.

That said, keep doing the weird stuff, and please tell us aaaall about it! ;-)

[lostboy_lj]

This post generated a pretty massive meta from me that's still in progress, but since my pick involved saying something in comments, I'll just ask this question: Why do the events in "Smashed" necessarily involve Buffy "succumbing" to some irresistible force?

Is a source of pressure really distinct from the person who succumbs to it? Or is it an intrinsic part of who they are? There just seems to be a basic agency problem with the wording here. As in real life, choice signifies life in the Buffyverse. For good or for ill, Buffy chose to kiss Spike in "Smashed", as she did in "OMWF" and "Tabula Rasa". These were the first real choices she made since clawing her way out of the grave, and the fact she find them disturbing doesn't mean that they were generated by forces beyond her control

[rebcake]

If the poll's non-results are anything to go by, I don't think you'd get much of an argument about anything you've said, as regards this case anyway.

Is a source of pressure really distinct from the person who succumbs to it?I think a lot of the "rape culture" arguments we were seeing non-expressed on Mark Watches are about how outside pressure can be internalized into inside pressure, which is why some people were questioning Buffy's consent in this case. I absolutely concede that there are real world examples of this kind of thing. (A horrific NPR program on "Lover Boys" in the Netherlands was just the latest I ran across this week. Brrr and grrrr..) So, there's that

[lostboy_lj]

She is giving in to...herself.

Yeah, I think that's the crux of what I don't agree with, in regards to the wording of the question. I recognize there's a great deal of poetic license that goes along with that sentiment ("giving in to your desires", "submitting to the needs of the flesh", yada yada), and that might be the way you were using it. But given the sensitive nature of this particular question it seems important to more sharply define the line between what is "choice" and what is "compulsion."

Her situation seems similar to me (and, I'd bet, to the show's authors) to what's going on with Willow in this exact episode. I think Willow's problem gets misunderstood/mischaracterized in the fandom as a "magic addiction" for the same reason that Buffy's fraught relationship with Spike gets mischaracterized as non-con (or, at least, dub-con). Inner confusion or denial about why we make certain choices doesn't mean that we haven't actually made them, it just means that we are too scared or damaged to look in the mirror and figure

[rebcake]

Inner confusion or denial about why we make certain choices doesn't mean that we haven't actually made themAgreed. And, yes, neither Willow nor Buffy are facing up to what's behind their choices. I'm struggling to understand the issue that you are having with the wording, though. I may have to wait for your meta to get the nuance that I'm missing, alas. I mean, I see desires as an integral part of a person, and something we must all learn to live with, and to control when they get destructively voracious. I don't think Buffy's desire for Spike meets that criteria, even if she does. The destructive aspects that come out are the result of her refusal to face her desire honestly, IMO