I'd listen to that, but I have this irrational hate boner for Hart Hanson and don't wanna listen to him babble. XD Other than that, yeah. All the bullying and shaming going on in fandom is probably even worse, if you look at it that way, seeing as it's not only douchey but also entirely for naught. Because this way or that, NO ONE'S GONNA CARE.
I'm not personally familiar with Hart Hanson (and on the podcast, I can't really tell one voice from the next) but MAN, have we been awful to each other in fandom lately! It's a bloody crime! I know my personal malcontent (because I don't ardently ship Dean/Cas) has been my fear that the shitty behavior and accusations of queer baiting will lead to a serious downturn in viewership and kill the show ... until I started doing a little research and discovered that our fandom numbers are relatively small (as I mentioned above, 1 in 50.) And then you look at this season's ratings and the numbers are increased from last year.
I'm still really really sadfaced about the fandom in-fighting, and I still wish the show's attention to detail WAS THERE, but it was kinda heartening to hear that the misadventures we see on Twitter don't really amount to a hill of beans.
(EDIT: the aforementioned "shitty behavior" is not just from the D/C camp, btw. It's systemic!)
Yeah, and yet there are still some people who believe we're devils incarnate and think D/C shipping is itself the one and only problem this fandom has. Ugh. And all the hate and the fighting and the toxic wasteland this fandom has become over trying to fight for TPTB's attention, when, either way, we're not gonna have any influence on jack shit.
And the aforementioned amount to a lot, for the fans who are being hurt and bullied. So yeah. All to get the attention of a handful of tv-making people who neither want to nor will do what whoever screams the loudest wants.
I really don't understand why there's such venom between a handful of folks in fandom. The kinda funny thing is ... as small as fandom is in comparison to the general TV-watching public, the faction of fans who fight amongst themselves is smaller still. But if you find yourself IN that war, of course it feels huge and horrible
( ... )
That's because we want to believe SO HARD that we're special snowflakes and we matter! The fact we can 'touch' the writers and Show folk on tumblr/twitter/whathaveyou doesn't help. It gives the illusion of a connection. Connections are made through relationships being formed, not the sporadic social media exchange.
It's not that Show doesn't appreciate the fans, or that we can't connect through social media, but it takes a sustained and individual commitment.
Frankly, I don't know how any TV show get produced with any level of quality! Seems like so many of them are dumbing down to appeal to the lowest common denominator. I think the networks like HBO, Showtime and such entering the serial ring has broadened what show creators can do substantially. You think?
I am so happy to read this. I want the writers to tell the stories that they want to tell. And so far as that matches what I'm interested in, I'm along for the ride. (And in the case of SPN, I'm a little more invested than that!) When a show no longer meets my expectations or desires, I move on, but I don't rant that they are doing it wrong.
Which is not to suggest that people shouldn't express their hopes or disappointment or frustration on their personal blogs. But making demands to the Powers That Be...? I'm actually relieved to hear writers say that they don't pander to the loudest voices.
I really liked your whole post. It never hurts to ask for better representation of any given demographic, be it LGBTA (basically, any non-hetero) lifestyle, POCs, genders, you name it. But to require a particular turn of events to come to fruition is just unrealistic, IMHO. Yes!
As much as we'd like the writers to tell the story they want to tell, even they have to kowtow to the network. Imagine if they had to do what fandom wanted too? It'd be one big mess, trying to placate everyone.
They have to make their bosses happy (which means making sure the commercials are being watched and the ratings keep steady, if not improve.)
That's not to say the craft of writing the episodes couldn't use a little polish, but that doesn't really have much to do with the Big Picture, when it's all said and done. Personally, I'd LOVE to see more continuity and experimenting (and originality), but I do like Show the way it is. It is my sole fandom for a reason!
Tired or no, this is an amazing, thoughtful response! (I'm sitting at one of my kids' schools, waiting for a holiday function so I'll digest this better later) but DAMN, you made some great points!
Thanks, it's a topic that's been gnawing at me for some time and fandom response and discussion is a little scattered and oftentimes unfortunately littered with outbreaks of the aforementioned war efforts that disrupt the process. Thank you for providing a respectful and sensible starting point for such a discussion in your awesome fandom space.
BTW, you still owe me artstuffs. For like a year now *g*
I knoooow! *rolls around on the ground, flailing like a toddler* And you're not the only one! I know I've asked you for the scene a bazillion times but given my ancient brain, remind me! (I remember it basically, but you know me and details: I LOVES THEM.)
PM me with the passage again. Pretty pleeeease?
I will knock it out it ASAP. Wiiiiiings. I have done so few of them! There are two other pics I owe folks and MUST DO as soon as Xmas lets me breathe.
Yes, I was a Mulder/Scully shipper back in the day, and man, oh, man, did I ever learn to be careful what you wish for. And especially with this show! I can't imagine these writers handling a gay romance in a way that didn't make me break out in hives.
The conversations about queerbaiting make me intensely uncomfortable. I'm gay, and I ship D/C, but it really feels like my sexuality is getting exploited by people who want to see their OTP kiss on screen. If you care about gay rights, there are better ways to spend your time than harassing the writers of an obscure genre show on Twitter. I'm not saying some of them aren't sincere, but it would be interesting to see how happy they'd be about queer representation if there were a canon gay couple on the show, and it was Cas and SamSPN's relationship to fans is interesting because it's been on the air so long. It started long before Tumblr, when the fourth wall was much more firmly in place than it is these days. And I think for that reason they felt comfortable joking with the
( ... )
Yeah, I'm not opposed to the idea of slash ships becoming canon... I think it would be pretty great for same-sex romances to come about in the same organic way you sometimes see with het couples, when the writers go "oh, yup, there's chemistry there we have to work with" and you sometimes end up with really complicated, nuanced relationships as a result. But it's hard to see how this show, which tends to use gay couples and trans* people as punchlines, could possibly handle a romance between a Winchester bro and another man without being offensive
( ... )
It's a special kind of failure to canonize a pairing in a way that equally pisses off shippers and non-shippers. Nobody got what they wanted.
I think it would be pretty great for same-sex romances to come about in the same organic way you sometimes see with het couples, when the writers go "oh, yup, there's chemistry there we have to work with" and you sometimes end up with really complicated, nuanced relationships as a result.
Yes, this, 100%. One of the charms of the Mulder/Scully relationship in the early seasons was that the writers weren't pushing it as a romance--they were just two cool people who genuinely delighted in each other's company and respected each other's opinions. Canon het couples on TV so rarely seem to like each other
( ... )
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I'm still really really sadfaced about the fandom in-fighting, and I still wish the show's attention to detail WAS THERE, but it was kinda heartening to hear that the misadventures we see on Twitter don't really amount to a hill of beans.
(EDIT: the aforementioned "shitty behavior" is not just from the D/C camp, btw. It's systemic!)
Reply
And the aforementioned amount to a lot, for the fans who are being hurt and bullied. So yeah. All to get the attention of a handful of tv-making people who neither want to nor will do what whoever screams the loudest wants.
Reply
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It's not that Show doesn't appreciate the fans, or that we can't connect through social media, but it takes a sustained and individual commitment.
Frankly, I don't know how any TV show get produced with any level of quality! Seems like so many of them are dumbing down to appeal to the lowest common denominator. I think the networks like HBO, Showtime and such entering the serial ring has broadened what show creators can do substantially. You think?
Reply
Which is not to suggest that people shouldn't express their hopes or disappointment or frustration on their personal blogs. But making demands to the Powers That Be...? I'm actually relieved to hear writers say that they don't pander to the loudest voices.
I really liked your whole post. It never hurts to ask for better representation of any given demographic, be it LGBTA (basically, any non-hetero) lifestyle, POCs, genders, you name it. But to require a particular turn of events to come to fruition is just unrealistic, IMHO. Yes!
Reply
They have to make their bosses happy (which means making sure the commercials are being watched and the ratings keep steady, if not improve.)
That's not to say the craft of writing the episodes couldn't use a little polish, but that doesn't really have much to do with the Big Picture, when it's all said and done. Personally, I'd LOVE to see more continuity and experimenting (and originality), but I do like Show the way it is. It is my sole fandom for a reason!
Reply
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More to come...
Reply
BTW, you still owe me artstuffs. For like a year now *g*
Reply
PM me with the passage again. Pretty pleeeease?
I will knock it out it ASAP. Wiiiiiings. I have done so few of them! There are two other pics I owe folks and MUST DO as soon as Xmas lets me breathe.
Reply
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The conversations about queerbaiting make me intensely uncomfortable. I'm gay, and I ship D/C, but it really feels like my sexuality is getting exploited by people who want to see their OTP kiss on screen. If you care about gay rights, there are better ways to spend your time than harassing the writers of an obscure genre show on Twitter. I'm not saying some of them aren't sincere, but it would be interesting to see how happy they'd be about queer representation if there were a canon gay couple on the show, and it was Cas and SamSPN's relationship to fans is interesting because it's been on the air so long. It started long before Tumblr, when the fourth wall was much more firmly in place than it is these days. And I think for that reason they felt comfortable joking with the ( ... )
Reply
Yeah, I'm not opposed to the idea of slash ships becoming canon... I think it would be pretty great for same-sex romances to come about in the same organic way you sometimes see with het couples, when the writers go "oh, yup, there's chemistry there we have to work with" and you sometimes end up with really complicated, nuanced relationships as a result. But it's hard to see how this show, which tends to use gay couples and trans* people as punchlines, could possibly handle a romance between a Winchester bro and another man without being offensive ( ... )
Reply
It's a special kind of failure to canonize a pairing in a way that equally pisses off shippers and non-shippers. Nobody got what they wanted.
I think it would be pretty great for same-sex romances to come about in the same organic way you sometimes see with het couples, when the writers go "oh, yup, there's chemistry there we have to work with" and you sometimes end up with really complicated, nuanced relationships as a result.
Yes, this, 100%. One of the charms of the Mulder/Scully relationship in the early seasons was that the writers weren't pushing it as a romance--they were just two cool people who genuinely delighted in each other's company and respected each other's opinions. Canon het couples on TV so rarely seem to like each other ( ... )
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