My fan entitlement was broken as a youngin', when I was a passionate Sculder shipper (and got what I thought I'd wanted, exactly how I didn't want it), and then a passionate Spuffy shipper (where I got to see half of my OTP attempt to rape the other half, and with a commercial break in the middle of the scene to boot). Granted, we didn't have twitter back then, and I wasn't one for mailing things to the writers, so my entitlement mostly consisted of sitting around wanting the things I wanted.
In these conversations, I tend to suggest that, you know, we're looking at fans who haven't had their hope and joy squeezed out of them forever upon seeing their OTP made canon... because that what happens. You don't want your OTP made canon. Ever. Nope nope nope. I tend to suspect the kinds of fans currently upset about things like queerbaiting (as wrong-headed and offensive as those conversations, along with lists of stereotypes made in arguments about sexuality, can be) haven't figured out how this thing works yet. Some should know better by now, of course. I'm not really sure what to do about them.
I think SPN has a particular issue in that the show has always presented itself as accommodating the fans. You know, if you're going to kill all the ladies on request, why can't you kill Castiel, or write a Castiel/Dean sex scene, or give Sam a pet moose named Francis and have him ride that moose in the Derby to show all those horses that having antlers doesn't mean you can't succeed, or whatever else we decide to demand? There's little understanding of how TV works, how ratings works, their overall importance in the hierarchy of things writers need to consider, etc.
I think fan reaction can influence things -- that's how you end up with breakout characters -- but yelling at some dude on Twitter isn't going to course-correct a whole series and make it exactly what you want, nor should it. I've seen enough so-called fix-it fics to suggest sometimes fans shouldn't get to control every aspect of a show. :DDDDD
Yes, I was a Mulder/Scully shipper back in the day, and man, oh, man, did I ever learn to be careful what you wish for. And especially with this show! I can't imagine these writers handling a gay romance in a way that didn't make me break out in hives.
The conversations about queerbaiting make me intensely uncomfortable. I'm gay, and I ship D/C, but it really feels like my sexuality is getting exploited by people who want to see their OTP kiss on screen. If you care about gay rights, there are better ways to spend your time than harassing the writers of an obscure genre show on Twitter. I'm not saying some of them aren't sincere, but it would be interesting to see how happy they'd be about queer representation if there were a canon gay couple on the show, and it was Cas and Sam.
SPN's relationship to fans is interesting because it's been on the air so long. It started long before Tumblr, when the fourth wall was much more firmly in place than it is these days. And I think for that reason they felt comfortable joking with the audience about things like Wincest in "The Monster At the End of This Book." They assumed that (a) most people would get it was just a wink, and (b) they wouldn't have to deal with the fallout if anyone got riled up. Neither of those things is true anymore. I'd be interested to know if TPTB at a more recent show, like Teen Wolf, are handling fans differently, and in what ways.
Yeah, I'm not opposed to the idea of slash ships becoming canon... I think it would be pretty great for same-sex romances to come about in the same organic way you sometimes see with het couples, when the writers go "oh, yup, there's chemistry there we have to work with" and you sometimes end up with really complicated, nuanced relationships as a result. But it's hard to see how this show, which tends to use gay couples and trans* people as punchlines, could possibly handle a romance between a Winchester bro and another man without being offensive.
I definitely see how queerbaiting exploits a legitimate issue -- i.e., the very clear need for more LGBT representation on television -- and turns it into an excuse to push for one particular ship. I sort of shot off my last answer, so I'm sorry if it came off too glib or like I didn't see the problems there. It really comes off as trying to wrap the same old shipping agenda in SJ concerns, which I think becomes amplified when you see some of the Reasons Why Dean is Obv. Bi (#1 he has male friends #2 he cries sometimes...) from the same people claiming to be working for better representation.
Sterek and Destiel fandoms have a lot in common, from what I've seen (admittedly I'm not firmly entrenched in either). Sterek fandom talks about queerbaiting a lot, but it's something where queer couples who aren't Derek/Stiles don't count, judging from the way that no one seemed impressed by Danny and ... one of the twins. It's been too long since I watched 3a! Ethan? Anyway, it's sort of like how Charlie doesn't count, because she's not a lead. If they don't get the queer representation they want, they find a new reason why it's not good representation. (I'm not saying that they're complaining when SPN and TW already do a perfect job, because no, just that the goal posts do seem to shift).
Genre shows have been engaging with their fans basically since The X-Files had their own forum where fans could talk to the writers (there were some online fandom things before then, of course, notably with Twin Peaks), but I think the kind of engagement you had with superfans on The Bronze or whatever looked different than the kind of thing you see today, where it's millions of people with direct access and there aren't any mods, etc. etc. I don't know enough about how fandom interacted on forums to know if SPN would still have done what it did with ship-teasing and the fourth wall, etc. if they knew how Web 2.0 was going to change fan-creator interaction. It seems that new shows seem to embrace it more than not (Sleepy Fridays on Twitter, for example, or Jeff Davis doing online Q&As with TW fans), but most shows don't refer to their fandoms quite like SPN does/did, so it's hard to say if they're not doing anything because of Web 2.0. They tease shippers, sure, (Dylan and Tyler on a ship!) but not so much on/through the show, I don't think. I'd be really interested in reading some kind of more formal observation, to be sure. :)
I think the big difference with TW and queerbaiting accusations is that Jeff Davis is gay, so his response tends to be stuff like this: "Queer pairings is on my list right underneath queerbaiting. I swear we’ll get it to it! :)" I don't think you'd hear that from someone on SPN.
It's a special kind of failure to canonize a pairing in a way that equally pisses off shippers and non-shippers. Nobody got what they wanted.
I think it would be pretty great for same-sex romances to come about in the same organic way you sometimes see with het couples, when the writers go "oh, yup, there's chemistry there we have to work with" and you sometimes end up with really complicated, nuanced relationships as a result.
Yes, this, 100%. One of the charms of the Mulder/Scully relationship in the early seasons was that the writers weren't pushing it as a romance--they were just two cool people who genuinely delighted in each other's company and respected each other's opinions. Canon het couples on TV so rarely seem to like each other.
I don't think it's a coincidence that I've been unenthused by every canon pairing on SPN except for Meg/Cas, which was the only case where the woman wasn't introduced as a love interest.
Has there ever been a gay couple on television that started organically that way? One of my early ships was Beecher/Keller on Oz, which was a canon gay ship that was introduced as sexual, but was obviously extended past the original plotline because of the chemistry between the actors. That's the closest example I can think of.
I sort of shot off my last answer, so I'm sorry if it came off too glib or like I didn't see the problems there.
No, no, not at all. I understood what you meant. I'm just feeling old and crotchety toward Tumblr. I don't even bother browsing the destiel tag anymore because there's such an excess of misguided self-righteousness. And yes, some of the 'Dean is bisexual' meta is kind of regressive. I feel like there's a lot of people involved who mean well, but who haven't necessarily given much thought to LGBTQA issues.
(I'm not saying that they're complaining when SPN and TW already do a perfect job, because no, just that the goal posts do seem to shift).
I haven't watched Teen Wolf, but that strikes me as true of SPN. I mean, Charlie isn't my favorite character, and after 9 seasons she's hardly major representation, but it's weird how she never gets mentioned, even though she's a fairly non-stereotypical gay person who's had relationships with women without being defined by her sexuality. Why in't there a crusade for canon Charlie/Dorothy?
I think the big difference with TW and queerbaiting accusations is that Jeff Davis is gay, so his response tends to be stuff like this: "Queer pairings is on my list right underneath queerbaiting. I swear we’ll get it to it! :)" I don't think you'd hear that from someone on SPN.
Heh, certainly not--SPN feels very much like an old boys' club to me. I didn't realize the creator of Teen Wolf was gay. I wonder how that affects audience expectations? I can imagine people believing, rightly or wrongly, that he was more likely to make a slash ship canon.
The first time I remember being in a fandom that interacted heavily with the creator was Babylon 5--JMS was pretty regularly online, and offered his opinions and back story on the show. I know people showed him fan fic because he said at one point he couldn't read it for legal reasons, but I don't remember shipping being an issue. Of course, the two big ships were canon het ships, and I'm sure he was asked about them, but I have no memory of slash ships ever being brought to his attention. Certainly no one expected them to be made canon.
I don't think it's a coincidence that I've been unenthused by every canon pairing on SPN except for Meg/Cas, which was the only case where the woman wasn't introduced as a love interest.
I feel you! It's why I loved Spike and Buffy so much. He wasn't brought on as a love interest, which meant that he was a really developed character who'd gone through a bunch of things and changed before he wound up with Buffy (both when it was mutually abusive and when they were working on not being destructive). Meg/Cas is my favorite SPN canon ship as well, again because you had two developed characters who had more going on than romance.
Has there ever been a gay couple on television that started organically that way? One of my early ships was Beecher/Keller on Oz, which was a canon gay ship that was introduced as sexual, but was obviously extended past the original plotline because of the chemistry between the actors. That's the closest example I can think of.
I haven't watched either show, but I think I heard that Spartacus had a couple like that, and people have told me that Jack/Ianto came about organically, but I don't really know.
Heh, certainly not--SPN feels very much like an old boys' club to me. I didn't realize the creator of Teen Wolf was gay. I wonder how that affects audience expectations? I can imagine people believing, rightly or wrongly, that he was more likely to make a slash ship canon.
Teen Wolf is far from perfect, but it's better than SPN on a lot of counts (regular female characters, no lol gay). I can see why shippers would think that the person who specifically created a world without homophobia (Danny's popular; Stiles befriends drag queens; Stiles is touched when Danny says that he'll de-virginize him, right up until he realizes Danny was fucking with him -- again, not perfect, but definitely a different take than SPN's) would be willing to make their specific pairing canon, but you'd think it would change their arguments some, because why would this particular ship be the best representation? Honestly, as someone who watches the show but doesn't do anything in the fandom, I don't know half of what they're talking about in their fandom SJ and meta, but there does seem to be a fair amount of "my ship/character is better SJ than yours."
Of course, the two big ships were canon het ships, and I'm sure he was asked about them, but I have no memory of slash ships ever being brought to his attention. Certainly no one expected them to be made canon.
I think the greater awareness of slash ships comes down to kids these days growing up with LGBTQ characters on television. There's no sense that you can talk about your het ship but slash is some secret shameful thing, and I tend to think that's for the better. It just happens that it's come about as the fourth wall's been smashed to pieces, so you have a bunch of intense slash shippers who think they can make a show go their way and who can contact TPTB through twitter, tumblr, etc. Mulder/Scully and Spuffy shippers would have been doing the exact same thing if twitter existed in the '90s. :)
...but it would be interesting to see how happy they'd be about queer representation if there were a canon gay couple on the show, and it was Cas and Sam. YES. monicawoe and I have discussed this too. My husband, who kinda tolerates my SPN fixation, even suggest he could see Sam having experimented in college but it just didn't work for him at the time. Interesting indeed!
Re. Teen Wolf, not long ago, MTV actually sponsored a fanfic contest, if I recall. I don't know what ever came of that; maybe someone from my f'list who follows the show can fill us in. I've seen some grumbling on tumblr about it, though.
Yes, I can definitely imagine Sam experimenting in college--it was Stanford, after all. And at a meta level I think it's interesting to imagine Sam as non-straight: fanon tends to assume he'd be 100% enlightened and cool about it, but it seems to me that someone who has so many issues about being a "freak," and who idealizes a "normal" life, might not be immediately copacetic about having a nontraditional sexuality. You know what makes people look at you like a freak? Being a 6'5 muscular dude holding hands with another guy. But I suppose that's what fan fic is for.
Re. Teen Wolf, not long ago, MTV actually sponsored a fanfic contest, if I recall.
Between this and people selling it on Amazon, I'm fascinated by how mainstream fan fic has become in the last couple of years.
I don't know that possibly experimenting with sexuality in college necessarily means he was 100% copacetic with the idea of not being straight; I think it could've been his first opportunity for him to get out from under the eye of his father and test the waters. I have a theory that sexuality is a continuum anyway, and it fluctuates too lesser of greater degrees throughout the course of a person's life. Just speaking from my own experiences. But you make a very valid point!
Regarding fanfic, I'm a little unsure about the monetization of it on Amazon. Maybe it's just because it's Amazon, or maybe it's because the contract that authors get when they work on fanfic under Amazon Worlds basically signs over all the rights to the stories and the concepts therein to the copyright holder. I like my fanfic being free, plain and simple. Free of boundaries, free of restrictions, freely shared!
but it would be interesting to see how happy they'd be about queer representation if there were a canon gay couple on the show, and it was Cas and Sam. Excellent point. There's nothing wrong with simply wanting to see these two guys make out (I'd watch!), but I guess someone figured out that's not really a strong platform for demanding such huge changes to the show. So now it's couched in a cry for social justice. But actually, as far as storytelling goes, Sam could be the more logical choice - "profound bond" between Dean & Cas notwithstanding, who knows how Sam experimented with his newfound freedom in college before he settled down with Jessica? He's one of the show's stars, he's masculine and tough, he surrounds himself with men, he has terrible luck with women, he cries almost as much as Dean, he's always believed that deep down there's something "wrong" with him, he's such an effective liar that he can even lie to himself ... all the same criteria (read: stereotypes) that Dean meets. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE imaging Dean as bisexual, and I revel in the show's subtext on that matter as much as the next fanfic reader/writer. But I also see how the subtext could be similarly interpreted with Sam, so if this D/C campaign is really all about social justice and queer representation, well, there's certainly more than one qualified Winchester candidate.
I can't imagine these writers handling a gay romance in a way that didn't make me break out in hives. Ditto. I just could not see them writing Dean and Cas in love in way that didn't end up ridiculing and truly emasculating both characters, because frankly, that's what these writers are best at - putting these characters in homoerotic situations as a punchline, not for character development. I wouldn't want to see them try to write a same-sex relationship in a serious manner. It would most likely be painful to watch.
But I also see how the subtext could be similarly interpreted with Sam, so if this D/C campaign is really all about social justice and queer representation, well, there's certainly more than one qualified Winchester candidate.
Yep. Honestly, with enough wishful thinking I feel like you could find "evidence" that literally any character on television is bisexual. Which is what makes slashing so easy and fun, but it's not a viable basis for a social justice campaign.
I just could not see them writing Dean and Cas in love in way that didn't end up ridiculing and truly emasculating both characters, because frankly, that's what these writers are best at - putting these characters in homoerotic situations as a punchline, not for character development.
So true. The "Ghostfacers" episode remains one of the most unnecessarily gay-panic-driven episodes of TV I've ever watched. The show that produced that is not going give us a gay romance for the ages.
SPN has long since stopped giving us any sort of thoughtful, nuanced script, honestly. Flashes here and there but that's about it. I think of Show as mostly a plot framework that we can hang fanfic on! And a little eye candy. :D
Hey, thanks for all your great comments, by the way. They've been really smart and insightful!
I'm pretty long in the tooth but this is my first official fandom, so technically I should be all dewy-eyed and optimistic too. But I'm also a professional creative and my kneejerk reaction is to defend the writers, even when they fuck it up. Their ultimate priority is to keep the show on the air. Trying to do that, in addiction to telling the story they wanna tell, staying true to the mythos and the characters, making the network happy, making the bulk of their watchers happy ... holy crow. It's nigh impossible.
I'm not saying these past few years have been bang-up, because they haven't. They've been pretty erratic and full of mistakes.
I think SPN has a particular issue in that the show has always presented itself as accommodating the fans. Yup. It's a tough situation. If not for fandom, they might not have made it out of Season One. Castiel was gonna be a short-lived character but fandom glommed onto him and they kept him around. But you gotta apply fan requests carefully, and it always has to serve the story, logistics, demographics and the network. (Personally, I miss the Harvelles most. If I could resurrect anyone, it'd be them.)
I've seen enough so-called fix-it fics to suggest sometimes fans shouldn't get to control every aspect of a show. Hee! There's a reason I don't write fix-it fic ..........
I think life experience and a solid head on one's shoulders count for almost as much as experience watching television. ;)
From what I understand, a lot of the times, TV writing is a job. Sometimes it's a passion, but sometimes it's long hours and a lot of stress and trying to have everything in order and under budget and on schedule without having to argue too many notes from the network. SPN, especially post-Kripke, strikes me as a workhorse more than something with grand storytelling ambitions.
I'd love the Harvelles back. I'm also forever bummed about Meg 2.0, even knowing there were reasons why Rachel Miner couldn't continue. If they found the right actress, I'd love to see Meg 2.0 alive and kicking again.
I meant to stick in a "bad" before "so-called." :D
My fan entitlement was broken as a youngin', when I was a passionate Sculder shipper (and got what I thought I'd wanted, exactly how I didn't want it), and then a passionate Spuffy shipper (where I got to see half of my OTP attempt to rape the other half, and with a commercial break in the middle of the scene to boot). Granted, we didn't have twitter back then, and I wasn't one for mailing things to the writers, so my entitlement mostly consisted of sitting around wanting the things I wanted.
In these conversations, I tend to suggest that, you know, we're looking at fans who haven't had their hope and joy squeezed out of them forever upon seeing their OTP made canon... because that what happens. You don't want your OTP made canon. Ever. Nope nope nope. I tend to suspect the kinds of fans currently upset about things like queerbaiting (as wrong-headed and offensive as those conversations, along with lists of stereotypes made in arguments about sexuality, can be) haven't figured out how this thing works yet. Some should know better by now, of course. I'm not really sure what to do about them.
I think SPN has a particular issue in that the show has always presented itself as accommodating the fans. You know, if you're going to kill all the ladies on request, why can't you kill Castiel, or write a Castiel/Dean sex scene, or give Sam a pet moose named Francis and have him ride that moose in the Derby to show all those horses that having antlers doesn't mean you can't succeed, or whatever else we decide to demand? There's little understanding of how TV works, how ratings works, their overall importance in the hierarchy of things writers need to consider, etc.
I think fan reaction can influence things -- that's how you end up with breakout characters -- but yelling at some dude on Twitter isn't going to course-correct a whole series and make it exactly what you want, nor should it. I've seen enough so-called fix-it fics to suggest sometimes fans shouldn't get to control every aspect of a show. :DDDDD
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The conversations about queerbaiting make me intensely uncomfortable. I'm gay, and I ship D/C, but it really feels like my sexuality is getting exploited by people who want to see their OTP kiss on screen. If you care about gay rights, there are better ways to spend your time than harassing the writers of an obscure genre show on Twitter. I'm not saying some of them aren't sincere, but it would be interesting to see how happy they'd be about queer representation if there were a canon gay couple on the show, and it was Cas and Sam.
SPN's relationship to fans is interesting because it's been on the air so long. It started long before Tumblr, when the fourth wall was much more firmly in place than it is these days. And I think for that reason they felt comfortable joking with the audience about things like Wincest in "The Monster At the End of This Book." They assumed that (a) most people would get it was just a wink, and (b) they wouldn't have to deal with the fallout if anyone got riled up. Neither of those things is true anymore. I'd be interested to know if TPTB at a more recent show, like Teen Wolf, are handling fans differently, and in what ways.
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Yeah, I'm not opposed to the idea of slash ships becoming canon... I think it would be pretty great for same-sex romances to come about in the same organic way you sometimes see with het couples, when the writers go "oh, yup, there's chemistry there we have to work with" and you sometimes end up with really complicated, nuanced relationships as a result. But it's hard to see how this show, which tends to use gay couples and trans* people as punchlines, could possibly handle a romance between a Winchester bro and another man without being offensive.
I definitely see how queerbaiting exploits a legitimate issue -- i.e., the very clear need for more LGBT representation on television -- and turns it into an excuse to push for one particular ship. I sort of shot off my last answer, so I'm sorry if it came off too glib or like I didn't see the problems there. It really comes off as trying to wrap the same old shipping agenda in SJ concerns, which I think becomes amplified when you see some of the Reasons Why Dean is Obv. Bi (#1 he has male friends #2 he cries sometimes...) from the same people claiming to be working for better representation.
Sterek and Destiel fandoms have a lot in common, from what I've seen (admittedly I'm not firmly entrenched in either). Sterek fandom talks about queerbaiting a lot, but it's something where queer couples who aren't Derek/Stiles don't count, judging from the way that no one seemed impressed by Danny and ... one of the twins. It's been too long since I watched 3a! Ethan? Anyway, it's sort of like how Charlie doesn't count, because she's not a lead. If they don't get the queer representation they want, they find a new reason why it's not good representation. (I'm not saying that they're complaining when SPN and TW already do a perfect job, because no, just that the goal posts do seem to shift).
Genre shows have been engaging with their fans basically since The X-Files had their own forum where fans could talk to the writers (there were some online fandom things before then, of course, notably with Twin Peaks), but I think the kind of engagement you had with superfans on The Bronze or whatever looked different than the kind of thing you see today, where it's millions of people with direct access and there aren't any mods, etc. etc. I don't know enough about how fandom interacted on forums to know if SPN would still have done what it did with ship-teasing and the fourth wall, etc. if they knew how Web 2.0 was going to change fan-creator interaction. It seems that new shows seem to embrace it more than not (Sleepy Fridays on Twitter, for example, or Jeff Davis doing online Q&As with TW fans), but most shows don't refer to their fandoms quite like SPN does/did, so it's hard to say if they're not doing anything because of Web 2.0. They tease shippers, sure, (Dylan and Tyler on a ship!) but not so much on/through the show, I don't think. I'd be really interested in reading some kind of more formal observation, to be sure. :)
I think the big difference with TW and queerbaiting accusations is that Jeff Davis is gay, so his response tends to be stuff like this: "Queer pairings is on my list right underneath queerbaiting. I swear we’ll get it to it! :)" I don't think you'd hear that from someone on SPN.
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It's a special kind of failure to canonize a pairing in a way that equally pisses off shippers and non-shippers. Nobody got what they wanted.
I think it would be pretty great for same-sex romances to come about in the same organic way you sometimes see with het couples, when the writers go "oh, yup, there's chemistry there we have to work with" and you sometimes end up with really complicated, nuanced relationships as a result.
Yes, this, 100%. One of the charms of the Mulder/Scully relationship in the early seasons was that the writers weren't pushing it as a romance--they were just two cool people who genuinely delighted in each other's company and respected each other's opinions. Canon het couples on TV so rarely seem to like each other.
I don't think it's a coincidence that I've been unenthused by every canon pairing on SPN except for Meg/Cas, which was the only case where the woman wasn't introduced as a love interest.
Has there ever been a gay couple on television that started organically that way? One of my early ships was Beecher/Keller on Oz, which was a canon gay ship that was introduced as sexual, but was obviously extended past the original plotline because of the chemistry between the actors. That's the closest example I can think of.
I sort of shot off my last answer, so I'm sorry if it came off too glib or like I didn't see the problems there.
No, no, not at all. I understood what you meant. I'm just feeling old and crotchety toward Tumblr. I don't even bother browsing the destiel tag anymore because there's such an excess of misguided self-righteousness. And yes, some of the 'Dean is bisexual' meta is kind of regressive. I feel like there's a lot of people involved who mean well, but who haven't necessarily given much thought to LGBTQA issues.
(I'm not saying that they're complaining when SPN and TW already do a perfect job, because no, just that the goal posts do seem to shift).
I haven't watched Teen Wolf, but that strikes me as true of SPN. I mean, Charlie isn't my favorite character, and after 9 seasons she's hardly major representation, but it's weird how she never gets mentioned, even though she's a fairly non-stereotypical gay person who's had relationships with women without being defined by her sexuality. Why in't there a crusade for canon Charlie/Dorothy?
I think the big difference with TW and queerbaiting accusations is that Jeff Davis is gay, so his response tends to be stuff like this: "Queer pairings is on my list right underneath queerbaiting. I swear we’ll get it to it! :)" I don't think you'd hear that from someone on SPN.
Heh, certainly not--SPN feels very much like an old boys' club to me. I didn't realize the creator of Teen Wolf was gay. I wonder how that affects audience expectations? I can imagine people believing, rightly or wrongly, that he was more likely to make a slash ship canon.
The first time I remember being in a fandom that interacted heavily with the creator was Babylon 5--JMS was pretty regularly online, and offered his opinions and back story on the show. I know people showed him fan fic because he said at one point he couldn't read it for legal reasons, but I don't remember shipping being an issue. Of course, the two big ships were canon het ships, and I'm sure he was asked about them, but I have no memory of slash ships ever being brought to his attention. Certainly no one expected them to be made canon.
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I feel you! It's why I loved Spike and Buffy so much. He wasn't brought on as a love interest, which meant that he was a really developed character who'd gone through a bunch of things and changed before he wound up with Buffy (both when it was mutually abusive and when they were working on not being destructive). Meg/Cas is my favorite SPN canon ship as well, again because you had two developed characters who had more going on than romance.
Has there ever been a gay couple on television that started organically that way? One of my early ships was Beecher/Keller on Oz, which was a canon gay ship that was introduced as sexual, but was obviously extended past the original plotline because of the chemistry between the actors. That's the closest example I can think of.
I haven't watched either show, but I think I heard that Spartacus had a couple like that, and people have told me that Jack/Ianto came about organically, but I don't really know.
Heh, certainly not--SPN feels very much like an old boys' club to me. I didn't realize the creator of Teen Wolf was gay. I wonder how that affects audience expectations? I can imagine people believing, rightly or wrongly, that he was more likely to make a slash ship canon.
Teen Wolf is far from perfect, but it's better than SPN on a lot of counts (regular female characters, no lol gay). I can see why shippers would think that the person who specifically created a world without homophobia (Danny's popular; Stiles befriends drag queens; Stiles is touched when Danny says that he'll de-virginize him, right up until he realizes Danny was fucking with him -- again, not perfect, but definitely a different take than SPN's) would be willing to make their specific pairing canon, but you'd think it would change their arguments some, because why would this particular ship be the best representation? Honestly, as someone who watches the show but doesn't do anything in the fandom, I don't know half of what they're talking about in their fandom SJ and meta, but there does seem to be a fair amount of "my ship/character is better SJ than yours."
Of course, the two big ships were canon het ships, and I'm sure he was asked about them, but I have no memory of slash ships ever being brought to his attention. Certainly no one expected them to be made canon.
I think the greater awareness of slash ships comes down to kids these days growing up with LGBTQ characters on television. There's no sense that you can talk about your het ship but slash is some secret shameful thing, and I tend to think that's for the better. It just happens that it's come about as the fourth wall's been smashed to pieces, so you have a bunch of intense slash shippers who think they can make a show go their way and who can contact TPTB through twitter, tumblr, etc. Mulder/Scully and Spuffy shippers would have been doing the exact same thing if twitter existed in the '90s. :)
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Re. Teen Wolf, not long ago, MTV actually sponsored a fanfic contest, if I recall. I don't know what ever came of that; maybe someone from my f'list who follows the show can fill us in. I've seen some grumbling on tumblr about it, though.
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Re. Teen Wolf, not long ago, MTV actually sponsored a fanfic contest, if I recall.
Between this and people selling it on Amazon, I'm fascinated by how mainstream fan fic has become in the last couple of years.
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Regarding fanfic, I'm a little unsure about the monetization of it on Amazon. Maybe it's just because it's Amazon, or maybe it's because the contract that authors get when they work on fanfic under Amazon Worlds basically signs over all the rights to the stories and the concepts therein to the copyright holder. I like my fanfic being free, plain and simple. Free of boundaries, free of restrictions, freely shared!
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I can't imagine these writers handling a gay romance in a way that didn't make me break out in hives. Ditto. I just could not see them writing Dean and Cas in love in way that didn't end up ridiculing and truly emasculating both characters, because frankly, that's what these writers are best at - putting these characters in homoerotic situations as a punchline, not for character development. I wouldn't want to see them try to write a same-sex relationship in a serious manner. It would most likely be painful to watch.
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Yep. Honestly, with enough wishful thinking I feel like you could find "evidence" that literally any character on television is bisexual. Which is what makes slashing so easy and fun, but it's not a viable basis for a social justice campaign.
I just could not see them writing Dean and Cas in love in way that didn't end up ridiculing and truly emasculating both characters, because frankly, that's what these writers are best at - putting these characters in homoerotic situations as a punchline, not for character development.
So true. The "Ghostfacers" episode remains one of the most unnecessarily gay-panic-driven episodes of TV I've ever watched. The show that produced that is not going give us a gay romance for the ages.
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Hey, thanks for all your great comments, by the way. They've been really smart and insightful!
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I'm not saying these past few years have been bang-up, because they haven't. They've been pretty erratic and full of mistakes.
I think SPN has a particular issue in that the show has always presented itself as accommodating the fans. Yup. It's a tough situation. If not for fandom, they might not have made it out of Season One. Castiel was gonna be a short-lived character but fandom glommed onto him and they kept him around. But you gotta apply fan requests carefully, and it always has to serve the story, logistics, demographics and the network. (Personally, I miss the Harvelles most. If I could resurrect anyone, it'd be them.)
I've seen enough so-called fix-it fics to suggest sometimes fans shouldn't get to control every aspect of a show. Hee! There's a reason I don't write fix-it fic ..........
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From what I understand, a lot of the times, TV writing is a job. Sometimes it's a passion, but sometimes it's long hours and a lot of stress and trying to have everything in order and under budget and on schedule without having to argue too many notes from the network. SPN, especially post-Kripke, strikes me as a workhorse more than something with grand storytelling ambitions.
I'd love the Harvelles back. I'm also forever bummed about Meg 2.0, even knowing there were reasons why Rachel Miner couldn't continue. If they found the right actress, I'd love to see Meg 2.0 alive and kicking again.
I meant to stick in a "bad" before "so-called." :D
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Yep, think of how many shows 'Moonlighting, X-Files' were wrecked when they made a ship, then again, it didn't hurt 'Bones'
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