look, the pie!

[pocochina]

It seems my psychosomatic Christmas avoidance flu was in fact the actual flu and all I've been any good for in the past week or so is watching Game of Thrones on a loop. And a little quality self-pity, but mostly Game of Thrones.

So, December Talking Meme is officially a January talking meme.

But I do have a few stray thought about GoT that I want

Comments

[abigail_n]

I think I actually expected the Stark kids to be a lot more ruthless than they were, or at least a lot less naive. These are the children of one of the most powerful nobles in the country - Sansa, for example, had legitimate expectations of marrying the heir to the throne - and I would have expected them to be raised with the assumption of privilege and command, and to be a great deal more savvy about politics and their role in the system than they're shown to be. You see that a little with Robb's skills as a war leader, or Bran's ability to run Winterfell, but it's absolutely missing from the girls, which is actually where I would have expected it to be more prominent, since politicking and alliances are how they can expect to gain power (and then there's my pet peeve about how they should both have companions and ladies-in-waiting from among the daughters of Ned's bannermen, but I've given up on that whole deal).

[noybusiness]

Part of that may be because Ned himself was a second son who never expected to inherit, just be a loyal brother to Brandon and loyal friend to Robert. It's not as though the North doesn't have its own internal politicking, so it's not because they're Northerners

[pocochina]

I think there's a difference between skill with power, which I suspect most children of powerful lords get from their education, and a dispositional capacity for ruthlessness. The Stark kids have the second, though I agree they're surprisingly lacking in the first.

I do wonder how much the girls being as sheltered as they are is a reflection of Ned's particular anxieties, relating back to whatever happened with his sister? He might have vaguely planned to marry them to slightly less prominent northern families rather than using their marriages to make alliances in the south, keeping them physically close and out of the game. He wouldn't be the first parent to think that failing to prepare his children for some aspect of life will protect them from experiencing it.

[noybusiness]

Ned wanted Stannis to succeed Robert, though, rather than one of Robert's bastards. Gendry would probably be a better king, but Ned was a traditionalist and also unambitious. Stannis was Robert's next legitimate heir, and Ned felt terrible making even the one secret deviation from Robert's exact words in the will. Taking it upon himself to change the line of succession (which he wasn't really doing by disinheriting Joffrey, since Joffrey wasn't legitimate; Ned just couldn't bear to tell Robert that on his deathbed and upset his dying friend) isn't something he'd ever consider. So he was unable to recognize the merits of Renly's plan.

[pocochina]

But what Ned wants is, under his own code of behavior, irrelevant. It should have been about (1) getting the illegitimate Lannister kids out of the line of succession and (2) getting a legally and politically legitimate Baratheon heir on the throne. If he knew, and he did, that trying to install Stannis would fracture the kingdom, and there was another option that wouldn't destabilize the whole system of succession, he should've tried to make it happen. I mean, I can't fault him too much for not having thought of that in the moment, with his old friend dying and a Lannister coup looming on the horizon. Someone like Varys or Renly could probably have taken that leap, but Varys wasn't there and Renly didn't know the whole story. But it was a move that was on the table at that point

[noybusiness]

Good point. Like I said, Ned was unambitious, which is a problem for someone who has to make decisions at the level that he did when he became Hand to a king who was on his way out (not that he knew that at the time, though he did know Robert was a king who needed handling). It's ironic that Catelyn thought accepting Robert's offer would prevent the wolf-killed-by-stag death omen from coming to pass, and it ensured that it did.

Of course, Stannis wouldn't have been happy about being passed over in succession in favor of a legitimized bastard, since he's such a grudge-holder and already felt slighted by Robert giving him Dragonstone instead of Storm's End (even though that was well-meant), but if he believed it was authentic, there's a good chance he wouldn't take up arms over it. Unless Melisandre and Selyse persuaded him that he had to because he was the chosen one.

[pocochina]

It's ironic that Catelyn thought accepting Robert's offer would prevent the wolf-killed-by-stag death omen from coming to pass, and it ensured that it did.

ah, yes! Poor Cat, she is almost as much of a Greek tragic heroine as Cersei, in her own way.

Unless Melisandre and Selyse persuaded him that he had to because he was the chosen one.

Yeah, I guess it depends on when Melisandre got her claws into him, and she certainly wouldn't be above getting a legitimate king out of the way with or without permission from Stannis. I do think Stannis would resentfully force himself to get behind a legitimate heir, though.

[raincitygirl]

Feel better soon!

[pocochina]

Thank you!

[pocochina]

I feel like this is the ultimate Stannis summary. He was a character that engaged me quite a bit from the book, but the show has improved on that, even. I love the little flashes of petulance? Like, that "you're abandoning me" from a middle-aged man, or his petty little snickering whenever Mel gets one over on Davos. He's such a piece of work.

SAM IS THE BEST <333. Maybe if he'd had some experiences to harden him scattered in more or less a supportive environment, rather than just blunt-force awfulness, he might have had more of a chance to adapt, but I suspect that if his father and then Thorne couldn't turn him any less gentle and compassionate, I'm not sure anything could.

[sunclouds33]

Super interesting thoughts. I'm stalled on S3, Ep 8 and I only finished the first book. I'm stalled for family reasons, not for lack of interest at all. But I'm pretty well spoiled because of pop culture osmosis even if I don't quite understand all of the spoilers that I've heard.

I think Game of Thrones is the first show that I've watched where ALL of the actors are outstanding in big or bit roles (and that's a lot of roles since the cast is YOOOOGE). Even for King Robert who's not likable and even all that interesting by GoT standards, the actor playing him is great.

Feel better!

[pocochina]

For what it's worth, I watched the show after reading the books and I don't think the spoilers hurt the experience in the least.

And IA, the cast is just phenomenally talented.

Thanks! I think I'm on the mend.