in which I hate a thing everyone else loves, NO ONE IS SURPRISED

[pocochina]

I'm coming up on a middle of my Supernatural finale reaction post, and I got sidetracked in squeaking with joy at how the show is deconstructing something I have come to hate with a passion: to wit, the sanctimonious emotional torture porn currently known as a "redemption arc." But it got too long for an episode review, though it's still much

Comments

gingerly

[auroramama]

I usually feel I don't dare criticize "redemption" themes because they have spiritual meaning in religions that aren't mine. (For example, I don't understand why regular human beings being crucified, many of whom must have been innocent by our standards, wasn't sufficient to expiate human sin.)

So it's refreshing to see this. I don't think it's wrong or sinful to torment fictional characters (except for other fictional characters inhabiting the same 'verse, for whom they aren't fictional), but this particular trope isn't a favorite of mine.

Re: gingerly

[pocochina]

I feel like a big part of why it bothers me so much is religious baggage? Like, when people who don't seem to have inside familiarity with Catholicism drool and fawn over ~redemption, I'm like "....you do know that's the exact language that gets used to convince six-year-olds they're a car crash away from being flung into an eternal lake of fire because they have 'bad attitudes,' right? you do know that's not cute, right?"

So tbqh it's kind of nice to hear that I'm not just projecting my issues and calling that frustration with lazy analysis of a cheap narrative trick.

(For example, I don't understand why regular human beings being crucified, many of whom must have been innocent by our standards, wasn't sufficient to expiate human sin.)FWIW, I always took away that it was more the idea of volitional sacrifice than the suffering? Other innocents who were crucified presumably didn't do so of their free will, which is just people hurting each other, ie just more sinning. Fiction which does hew pretty closely to those religious themes

Re: gingerly

[penny_lane_42]

I wonder if it is a Catholic thing? Because the way redemption arcs play out is the polar opposite of the Protestant view of redemption which is grace is a gift you can't do anything to deserve it ever but you should be in such awe of it that you start living a better life. Which isn't to say that there are lots of Protestants who fall into the earning-your-redemption trap, because there certainly are, but in theory it's ALL ABOUT grace as something beautiful and mysterious and precious that you accept gratefully while knowing it isn't your due (at least on the Arminian side of things; I won't speak to Calvinism since I pretty much abhor it).

Re: gingerly

[pocochina]

I love that you are so patient in educating me about Protestantism b/c I am clueless, as to how people practice and how it filters in and is expressed in narrative. Consider me Jon Snow, because I know NOTHING! <3

I feel like the particular storyline that bothers me kind of cannibalizes both ideas of redemption, and then tries to claim whatever qualities will make the narrative pass for...whatever is fashionable. Like, a character has to be a special snowflake "chosen" by the authorial "hand of God" and is usually hand-picked by some in-universe power, and on top of that there's the never-ending spiral - ie, you can't opt into the "redemption arc" and you can't opt out of it, which seems more in line with the Protestant idea you're describing. But modern creators don't like to be accused of fatalism, so they import the Catholic idea of sin and of deserving XYZ Totally Not Fate even though that doesn't do much to get at the actual "morality play slash emotional torture porn" issue.

[percysowner]

Fictional redemption arcs aren't about what I see as redemption, for lack of a better word. IRL "redemption" means looking at your behavior accepting the consequences, ding what you can to reverse any damage, then STOP DOING WHAT YOU DID BEFORE, if it was truly wrong. Redemption is closer to Sam's journey, where jumping into the cage was the only way to stop the Apocalypse. Sam stopped drinking demon blood (not having his dealer around helped), and eventually cleaned up the mess he made because of his addiction. In my mind, he is free and clear of what he did, and if Dean can't let it go,then Dean should just leave Sam alone to live his life, not continue to hold what Sam did over his head

[pocochina]

IRL "redemption" means looking at your behavior accepting the consequences, ding what you can to reverse any damage, then STOP DOING WHAT YOU DID BEFORE, if it was truly wrong.

YUP.

Except to me, because the language is so heavily normativized, there's some sense of proportionality - justice and fairness: things I do value! - and so I think it's really telling that all the talk of his "redemption" started way back in S2, when literally all he'd done "wrong" was insufficiently escape his abusers (his father and Azazel). It's so clearly about assigned status, not about volitional sin. Which is how we ended up where we did at the end of S8 and I don't see how I could be more pleased!

wandering off topic, sorry

[auroramama]

Yes. Sam repented, in the Jewish tradition of t'shuvah, by accepting his responsibility, ceasing to do what caused the disaster, and not doing it again. Working to set things right is part of it, but not, as far as I know Judaism, committing suicide to set things right, much less taking on eternal torture. So for me jumping into the Cage was above and beyond, and while religions differ, I thought Dean and Bobby and Castiel all acknowledged that Sam was being pretty awesome.

Most of the big names in the Apocalypse machinery never admitted that they were wrong, but they did die or end up back in the Cage. Team Free Will all died too, but were brought back (eventually). A quick death may not feel like sufficient punishment for a deliberately cruel player like Zachariah, but at least he's not around now to tell us that he still thinks he was right. Of those who did come back, how the hell is it that only Sam's repentance was insufficient?

Re: wandering off topic, sorry

[pocochina]

Sam repented, in the Jewish tradition of t'shuvah, by accepting his responsibility, ceasing to do what caused the disaster, and not doing it again

Thanks for this explanation! This is a description of something that's been part of my value system for a very long time but I never realized it came from/fit into a specific part of a religious tradition.

A quick death may not feel like sufficient punishment for a deliberately cruel player like Zachariah, but at least he's not around now to tell us that he still thinks he was right. Of those who did come back, how the hell is it that only Sam's repentance was insufficient?

Precisely! By Redemption Arc (TM) rules, his repentance is insufficient because there's more pain to be extracted. It's about sadism and sanctimony, not justice.

[obsessive_a101]

*coughs - of course I haven't made a recent post talking about my fascination for "redemption" arcs... not at all*

BUT SO SAY WE ALL to everything you posted here. :3 I mean, it's basically part and parcel to why I hated the "worthy of survival" sort-of theme in BSG, because noooooo?... That's not it at all?

I guess there are different types of redemption arcs. I'm not so much into it for actual, literal religious "redemption" so much as I am for... Hmm... Well, taking Xena as my major example. I love that it's her choice basically to try and do good because seeing all the stuff that's been happening and meeting good people have made her hope for the better even though her childhood and past has been defined by violence and loss. The fact that her redemption lies in that choice, and she is rewarded not divinely (because heck knows, Ares hates it) but in the friendships she forms with other people and the fact that people begin edging closer. She begins to appreciate life and people, and I think it's not so much that she needs to "

[pocochina]

Xena. <3 And yeah, from the first couple of season there were episodes that made me preemptively kind of wince, because I expected it to go in this direction and I was like "PT! I SPIT ON IT!" but at least from what I've seen she's been a good example of some aspects of the story being used right. (Tropes are not bad they're just tools! I tell myself all the time.) Because yeah, there wasn't that gratuitous feeling to her regret? It came up sometimes, sometimes with Callisto or other external reminders and sometimes as a part of her inner makeup, but I didn't feel like there was this self-loathing served up to be fetishized rather than alleviated. Not all people changing arcs are "redemption arcs" for which I need a better word, in the same way as not all MANPAIN is created equal.

Xena!

[auroramama]

Xena's regret, and her pragmatic approach to going on with her life, are now reminding me of The Prisoner. "Protect Other People," no matter what you may have done in the past or what may happen to you tomorrow. The only thing No 6 knows is that even in the Village, there are many people with fewer resources than he: less knowledge, less training and practice, less strength. Even in a maze there may be something he can do to help. And the alternative is sitting and brooding, which are dangerous hobbies even in less perilous places.

(I remember how outraged I was when Spike threw the other vampire back into the Initiative's installation. Ridiculous, but it just seemed so... amoral. In character, but it startled me.)

[pocochina]

Ooooh, I'd be really interested in seeing your thoughts on redemption arcs generally. Since I started writing this out I've been trying to of a more specific way of articulating all this as well. Because I feel like the arcs you're describing, a la Regina, appeal to me far more often than not? And I like religious imagery and themes in fiction as well, generally. I think the closest I can come is what penny-lane-42 is talking about upthread, this particular monster hybrid of Calvinist and Catholic themes PLUS angst-porn.