in which I hate a thing everyone else loves, NO ONE IS SURPRISED

[pocochina]

I'm coming up on a middle of my Supernatural finale reaction post, and I got sidetracked in squeaking with joy at how the show is deconstructing something I have come to hate with a passion: to wit, the sanctimonious emotional torture porn currently known as a "redemption arc." But it got too long for an episode review, though it's still much

Comments

gingerly

[auroramama]

I usually feel I don't dare criticize "redemption" themes because they have spiritual meaning in religions that aren't mine. (For example, I don't understand why regular human beings being crucified, many of whom must have been innocent by our standards, wasn't sufficient to expiate human sin.)

So it's refreshing to see this. I don't think it's wrong or sinful to torment fictional characters (except for other fictional characters inhabiting the same 'verse, for whom they aren't fictional), but this particular trope isn't a favorite of mine.

Re: gingerly

[pocochina]

I feel like a big part of why it bothers me so much is religious baggage? Like, when people who don't seem to have inside familiarity with Catholicism drool and fawn over ~redemption, I'm like "....you do know that's the exact language that gets used to convince six-year-olds they're a car crash away from being flung into an eternal lake of fire because they have 'bad attitudes,' right? you do know that's not cute, right?"

So tbqh it's kind of nice to hear that I'm not just projecting my issues and calling that frustration with lazy analysis of a cheap narrative trick.

(For example, I don't understand why regular human beings being crucified, many of whom must have been innocent by our standards, wasn't sufficient to expiate human sin.)FWIW, I always took away that it was more the idea of volitional sacrifice than the suffering? Other innocents who were crucified presumably didn't do so of their free will, which is just people hurting each other, ie just more sinning. Fiction which does hew pretty closely to those religious themes

Re: gingerly

[penny_lane_42]

I wonder if it is a Catholic thing? Because the way redemption arcs play out is the polar opposite of the Protestant view of redemption which is grace is a gift you can't do anything to deserve it ever but you should be in such awe of it that you start living a better life. Which isn't to say that there are lots of Protestants who fall into the earning-your-redemption trap, because there certainly are, but in theory it's ALL ABOUT grace as something beautiful and mysterious and precious that you accept gratefully while knowing it isn't your due (at least on the Arminian side of things; I won't speak to Calvinism since I pretty much abhor it).

Re: gingerly

[pocochina]

I love that you are so patient in educating me about Protestantism b/c I am clueless, as to how people practice and how it filters in and is expressed in narrative. Consider me Jon Snow, because I know NOTHING! <3

I feel like the particular storyline that bothers me kind of cannibalizes both ideas of redemption, and then tries to claim whatever qualities will make the narrative pass for...whatever is fashionable. Like, a character has to be a special snowflake "chosen" by the authorial "hand of God" and is usually hand-picked by some in-universe power, and on top of that there's the never-ending spiral - ie, you can't opt into the "redemption arc" and you can't opt out of it, which seems more in line with the Protestant idea you're describing. But modern creators don't like to be accused of fatalism, so they import the Catholic idea of sin and of deserving XYZ Totally Not Fate even though that doesn't do much to get at the actual "morality play slash emotional torture porn" issue.

Re: gingerly

[penny_lane_42]

Ha! I'm familiar with Catholicism as much as most thoughtful Protestant laypeople--I mean, it's such a huge part of Western culture, plus so much of our tradition was created in direct contradiction to it, so I have to know the basics, but I'm by no means any sort of expert

Re: gingerly

[pocochina]

umm...I have a thing I'm trying not to be late for but thank you for this! I'm hoping to get back to it later this afternoon.

Re: gingerly

[penny_lane_42]

So worries! I'm not on any sort of a timeline!

Eastern Orthodox theology

[auroramama]

A friend of mine recently converted to Orthodoxy. I read a bit online about it, but got no sense of what belief system lives in the mind of someone in that Church. I'd love to hear about it when you do have time.

I don't know to what extent Christians in the United States and Canada realize that someone like me, an American Jew who has never been persecuted or bullied about her religion, may still be uneasy about Christianity. About any evangelical religion, in fact. It may be hundreds of years since forced conversions, but we're taught about them as children. You don't have to be a vampire to flinch at a brandished cross. My mom does. So my reaction to Christian salvation themes may be kind of weird. It's fascinating stuff, and I know it's not aimed at me, but it once was.

Re: Eastern Orthodox theology

[penny_lane_42]

Honestly, the best explanation of the Orthodox theory of salvation is this video. It's not a terribly well-made video, but it explains it pretty well and clearly (you don't have to watch the whole thing if you don't want; the first five minutes or so should be able to give you an idea of it, I think). It's a belief system I'm moving into (I grew up Evangelical, so I've come a long way).

No, it does totally make sense to me, especially considering that Judaism (from my understanding) is so rooted in community and community history (which I find quite beautiful). The ironic thing is that, at least from a Protestant perspective, forced conversion is literally impossible. Like, if you have to be forced to convert, you clearly aren't converting at all. The Catholic approach to such things may be completely different, since I know salvation is deeply tied to the Church. More than that, I think it's just a case of forced cultural assimilation where religion was just a handy excuse to persecute those who are different (I'm a big

Re: Eastern Orthodox theology

[auroramama]

Thank you for your understanding! I'm pretty sure that no major religion believes in forced conversions now, however strongly they evangelize. And some Jewish sects do evangelize, to be fair; it's just that they only target people of Jewish background. But they scare me too, because similar-seeming groups are downright fundamentalist. As far as I can tell, fundamentalism is a parasitic growth, like an oak gall, that can afflict almost any religion. It's versatile; it adapts.

Re: Eastern Orthodox theology

[penny_lane_42]

I could not agree more with you re: fundamentalism. It is truly terrifying.

Re: Eastern Orthodox theology

[auroramama]

The video was more helpful than most of what I've read. I liked the image of the Creator traveling to wherever people might find themselves capable of listening. (If that's not right, I apologize.)

Hell is off the table in Judaism, at least the forms I have any knowledge of. There are some fearsome punishments in this world for certain sins in the bible, and hints of being "cut off" from a shared afterlife and left in loneliness in the grave, but the focus is intensely on this life. I was told in Hebrew school that the physical punishments had been commuted to fines and reparations once Pharisaic and then Rabbinic interpretations of the law had become preeminent.

Re: gingerly

[pocochina]

Thank you for the 101! But yeah, I think what I'm talking about is, as you say, Calvinism + Catholicism (which I know enough history to lol @that irony).

I'm really fond of stories about people who have done really terrible things trying to become better people (and often being not so great at it), but that's very distinct from the specific type of redemption arc you mention (see: Angel), which is not something I've ever been drawn to.

Yeah, exactly. But - and this is yet another thing the RA does wrong - is it sets up the whole MANPAIN thing where if you HAVE hurt people, thus proving you have the CAPABILITY to hurt people, well then your issues matter! It can tip into that same focus on HAVE DONE rather than TRYING TO DO which drives me up a wall, but with an added implicit threat.

Re: gingerly

[auroramama]

Other innocents who were crucified presumably didn't do so of their free will

I was thinking that some of them were religious martyrs and other people who took a stand for what they believed was right. They didn't enter the world of their own free will, of course, but they could have avoided leaving it through crucifixion.

Now I think I need to reread the original post and get a more precise sense of the differences between "redemption arcs" written by people whose knowledge of Catholic attitudes is nearly nil, and themes of the Gospel stories handled by those who understand. Part of it is torture for torture's sake, drawn out over whole seasons.

As for misuse of redemption and salvation, don't forget the inaccurately conceived "state of grace" and fall from grace. When someone feels they've fallen from a state of grace, and they're not talking about having committed an actual crime, my first guess would be depression. Nothing else I know can put out every light in the world and then convince you that it's your fault.

Re: gingerly

[pocochina]

Part of me wishes I had a more specific way to articulate when and how things seem off to me. But I just....idk, know it when I see it, and yeah, frequently part of it is the feeling that I'm being invited to kick someone when they're down.

As for misuse of redemption and salvation, don't forget the inaccurately conceived "state of grace" and fall from grace. When someone feels they've fallen from a state of grace, and they're not talking about having committed an actual crime, my first guess would be depression. Nothing else I know can put out every light in the world and then convince you that it's your fault.

Which in and of itself gets re-cast as a blame thing? Because "sloth" is apparently code for depression.

Re: gingerly

[auroramama]

I hadn't even thought of depression interpreted as the sin of sloth! I was thinking of vague, mostly-secular use of the metaphor of grace, as in Paul Simon's "American Tune". A sense that blessings have been revoked with no promise of renewal.

But people will invent all sorts of sins and misdeeds for poor Job, if the alternative is accepting that bad things can happen to them too.