girls love bad boys! but not for the reasons you think.

[pocochina]

I was going to deny my rationalization-filled, navel-gazey, nosebleed-level theorizing on this? But then ever_neutral wrote this and kelpyfinners wrote this and I AM NOT MADE OF STONE, PEOPLE. Right now this is no longer locked because...I felt like it? Passing familiarity with TVD and Buffy will probably help, but I don't think there are a whole lot of specific spoilers

Comments

[ceciliaj]

OH MAH GOSH! How did you just make my night right now? This is so awesome. I love thinking about identification and its weird genealogies, and this was so instructive for me. I mean, I find myself identifying more with female characters overall, but there are some traits that just plain don't appear in female characters, where I am like, oh no, I'm Angel. Alas! But anyway, I love what you're saying here about performance, and I think it makes a lot of sense that women would identify with the Spikes and Damons. I mean, this is what Dollhouse is all about, right, that many of us are placed in the position of the feminine-subordinate to the big machinery. <3

[pocochina]

It's fascinating, why we see ourselves in characters! I think this is meta-meta-navel-gazing, I should get a sticker or something.

I find myself identifying more with female characters overall, but there are some traits that just plain don't appear in female characters, where I am like, oh no, I'm Angel.I do feel mixed about my identification with male characters. It's easier for me to like and get excited about female characters overall, but when I click with a male character, it's this laser-focused YOU ARE ME experience. Damon and Spike, almost as much as Wesley and Lee. I don't tend to have that exact reaction to female characters, though I slightly suspect I'll get there with Lady Mary Crowley when I get around to S2

[penny_lane_42]

do feel mixed about my identification with male characters. It's easier for me to like and get excited about female characters overall, but when I click with a male character, it's this laser-focused YOU ARE ME experience.

This is me. If you ask me which character is my favorite from a given fandom, nine times out of ten it's going to be a lady. But, y'all, as much as I love Buffy or Scully or Martha Jones (and my love is INTENSE), I relate so, so much more to Spike or Mulder or Rory. I'm always surprised when I find a female character I actually relate to. I am still surprised by Annie Sawyer every time I see her on my screen.

[pocochina]

YES. The character I identify with is only rarely my favorite.

[snickfic]

And that is that they have a lot of traits which are coded feminine.

That... is more explicit than I've ever seen that thought stated before. Thank you.

Gah, I so want you to see SPN so you could tie Dean Winchester into this essay, too. (Except I suspect you'd hate SPN.) He's another "bad boy" character who's that way on purpose, who's playing the part, but also he is (especially in the first season!) coded very strongly as the 'female' of the family, the nurturer who's trying to hold the family together and take care of everyone.

[pocochina]

He's another "bad boy" character who's that way on purpose, who's playing the part, but also he is (especially in the first season!) coded very strongly as the 'female' of the family, the nurturer who's trying to hold the family together and take care of everyone.

OOOOH, INTERESTING. I've seen SPN mentioned enough to wonder if I should give it a try, which means I've seen enough of the frustration to wonder if I should let myself get attached. It sounds like I'd really like him, though.

[snickfic]

I think you would find it very, very frustrating. Basically: everybody dies; if you have a penis, you might get resurrected. And other issues. But Dean is awesome, and oh how I would love to read you writing meta about him.

[pocochina]

OH GOD THAT WOULD MAKE ME CRAZY. But yeah, Dean from all accounts sounds whiny and self-centered and therefore right up my alley. I'll probably wait for Netflix to make the choice for me and put it up on streaming.

[gabrielleabelle]

Huh. Interesting.

Specifically, the smooth-talking funny rebel bad boys - ie, “bad” meaning “a consciously non-mainstream self-presentation,” as opposed to, you know, “bad” meaning “EATING PEOPLE.”

Heh. This is true. Do female fans of Angel get the derisive "girls love bad boys" dismissal? Cause, really, he's just as bad as Spike, though his presentation is more straight-laced (in souled form, of course).

Interesting thoughts. Gonna have to ponder. :)

[pocochina]

Do female fans of Angel get the derisive "girls love bad boys" dismissal?

See, I don't think they do! Obviously I run with Spike fans more so I may have missed it, but for all my largely-lurkey involvement with AtS fandom, I really don't think there's that same criticism. And I really do think it's because Angel, however good or bad he tells everyone he is on whatever given day, is so insistently MANLY that there's not that same search for WHAT PERVERSION, WHY IN GOD'S NAME female fans would like him.

[penny_lane_42]

YESSSSSSSS. YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS. YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS. OMG YES.

[boot_the_grime]

Angel from AtS is close to classic "manly" hero or anti-hero, but Angel from BtVS was not. He's complicated as the masculinity/femininity perception goes as Spike on BtVS is; he's the love interest who's portrayed as mysterious, brooding and sensitive - "emo" as some would say. It's not hard to see him as prototype for "emo" characters like Edward Cullen who are adored by a bunch of female fans and despised by the majority of male readers/viewers. And "Angel is a girly name

[ladyofthelog]

I LOVE THIS POST SO MUCH.

I do tend to find that I identify the most with female characters, but like you said in the comments:
It's easier for me to like and get excited about female characters overall, but when I click with a male character, it's this laser-focused YOU ARE ME experience.This, exactly. Because I have a very BUFFY SUMMERS YOU ARE MY SISTER feeling, and FAITH YOU ARE MY HOMEGIRL, but with John Watson? JOHN WATSON IS ME

[pocochina]

I wonder, too, how much of it is that we take male protagonists as a blank slate. If you're expecting the male lead of a show to have the agency, to struggle with the need to put [x] over [friends, family], to shoulder the manly burden, it's easier to isolate the traits that differ from this model and latch onto them.

YES, EXACTLY. That is it. There's so much more you can take for granted with a male character, because the baseline for real women is performative silence, let alone for fictional characters. While I'm not defending that state of affairs - I think it sucks - I don't really like the puritanical attitude that therefore, to have opinions WORTH TAKING SERIOUSLY, we should vocally eschew the enjoyment of an emotional response it makes perfect sense to have.

JOHN WATSON IS ME

♥ ♥ ♥

that experience is now separated from its source (systemic sexism) and framed as personal experience, so it's easier to connect toEVERYTHING YOU SAY IS GOLD. YES. And true, it's not like you can excise systemic sexism from real life, but that's

[ever_neutral]

BLESS THIS POST.

I am, in point of fact, exactly as appalled with Damon as I am with, oh, Katherine, Stefan, Klaus, Elijah, and so forth - characters people do not seem to feel particularly defensive about liking. I’ve never seen anyone say they even vaguely felt attacked over their love of Katherine, who also raped a main character on-screen. But Damon is the lightning rod.YES. THIS. This so much. Because man, there is nothing about Damon that makes him technically worse than Kat/Stef/Klaus etc. And yet, I find myself having this instant "ooh don't go there" reaction when Damon's name pops up in whatever discussion. Like, I'll be on Tumblr and I'll see some Damon-centric graphic/quote/whatever and then I'll feel hesitant to reblog it because, man, IDK, I could get flamed or some shit. (This hasn't actually ever happened, but I AM WARY. And I've witnessed enough flamewars to avoid… whatever, "provoking" one.) And I never, ever feel that way about Kat or Stef or all the other awful people on TV that I love. It's like, because I'm

[ever_neutral]

And that female ownership of these characters freaks people the hell out, and so they dismiss all the implications of this experience by ridiculing female sexual attraction.

IN FUCKING ONE. Man, I love that that is the IMMEDIATE thing that people jump to when talking about these types of characters. "This guy's (female) fans excuse the guy's actions because he's hot." No. You know who else is hot? MOST PEOPLE ON TELEVISION. I love this idea that we are so distracted by our ladyboners~ that we lose the ability to make objective assessments about [insert male character here]. Which, HEY, excusing/handwaving/rape apologia EXISTS. But let's not conflate that with the other thing. Do that, and then it becomes this zone where a female fan expressing sexual attraction to certain male characters becomes UNACCEPTABLE, and good Lord, THERE IS ENOUGH OF THAT IN THE WORLD.

ie, “bad” meaning “a consciously non-mainstream self-presentation,” as opposed to, you know, “bad” meaning “EATING PEOPLE.” It violates the femininity paradigm either way -

[pocochina]

But the first type of men are deemed (relatively) acceptable to love in their worst mass-murdering stages because… IDK, they're the male protagonists?

Yes. And - again, it's fine to like them? I'm not saying people shouldn't, obviously. But there's not this BEWILDERMENT at WHAT POSSIBLE EXPLANATION there could be, this idea that they're so self-evidently slimy and awful that there MUST be some girly foolishness leading us in the wrong direction, because the Angel/Stefan masculinity is presumed to be an actual reason to like them.

And, you know, it's not a zero-sum thing. You can identify with both parties. But I would say that Damon (who is consistently depicted as a more active agent within the narrative) is more immediately identifiable, whereas you have to WORK to identify with Elena (and I think that is more deliberate on the part of the writers than you would think).Oh, completely. And I think this is a part of what allows Elena to be as thoroughly-drawn as she is? Because she's also a very traditionally feminine character, but

[penny_lane_42]

GIRLFRIEND YOUR ICON THO.

And YES YES YES to this entire comment. YES. I will never not be annoyed at the blatant double standard with regards to Angel vs. Spike and Stefan vs. Damon (though I will say that part of that, I think, has to do with how the former guys are brought into the show as "good guys" and we learn about their evils after the fact, versus Damon and Spike who are introduced as "bad guys"). And, you know, Faith and Katherine make the whole thing messier, too.

ANYWAY. I agree.