girls love bad boys! but not for the reasons you think.
I was going to deny my rationalization-filled, navel-gazey, nosebleed-level theorizing on this? But then ever_neutral wrote this and kelpyfinners wrote this and I AM NOT MADE OF STONE, PEOPLE. Right now this is no longer locked because...I felt like it? Passing familiarity with TVD and Buffy will probably help, but I don't think there are a whole lot of specific spoilers
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I am, in point of fact, exactly as appalled with Damon as I am with, oh, Katherine, Stefan, Klaus, Elijah, and so forth - characters people do not seem to feel particularly defensive about liking. I’ve never seen anyone say they even vaguely felt attacked over their love of Katherine, who also raped a main character on-screen. But Damon is the lightning rod.
YES. THIS. This so much. Because man, there is nothing about Damon that makes him technically worse than Kat/Stef/Klaus etc. And yet, I find myself having this instant "ooh don't go there" reaction when Damon's name pops up in whatever discussion. Like, I'll be on Tumblr and I'll see some Damon-centric graphic/quote/whatever and then I'll feel hesitant to reblog it because, man, IDK, I could get flamed or some shit. (This hasn't actually ever happened, but I AM WARY. And I've witnessed enough flamewars to avoid… whatever, "provoking" one.) And I never, ever feel that way about Kat or Stef or all the other awful people on TV that I love. It's like, because I'm primarily a Damon fan, I'm the lowest of the low. Bottom of the hierarchy. And why? I don't even know. Whatever, this is a self-indulgent ramble.
Agreed re: dismissiveness of male rape victims, of course. I've seen very little outrage in fandom over what Faith did to Xander, or what Kat did to Stefan. Which, yes, of course, VAW is absolutely more prevalent, but there's still a worrying double standard there. Because it's not even that Faith's or Kat's crimes are treated more seriously, it's that they're NOT TALKED ABOUT.
They play to the gaze, constantly.
Haha, I am so glad you brought up this point, because: YES. Oh man, yes. And it's weird how there's so much finger-wagging about finding these men attractive when shows like Buffy and TVD are overtly catering to us in that aspect. We're talking about vampires, dude. We're talking about symbols of sexual repression. And then you look at fandom and all the shaming of female sexuality and it's like... WHAT? LOL.
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IN FUCKING ONE. Man, I love that that is the IMMEDIATE thing that people jump to when talking about these types of characters. "This guy's (female) fans excuse the guy's actions because he's hot." No. You know who else is hot? MOST PEOPLE ON TELEVISION. I love this idea that we are so distracted by our ladyboners~ that we lose the ability to make objective assessments about [insert male character here]. Which, HEY, excusing/handwaving/rape apologia EXISTS. But let's not conflate that with the other thing. Do that, and then it becomes this zone where a female fan expressing sexual attraction to certain male characters becomes UNACCEPTABLE, and good Lord, THERE IS ENOUGH OF THAT IN THE WORLD.
ie, “bad” meaning “a consciously non-mainstream self-presentation,” as opposed to, you know, “bad” meaning “EATING PEOPLE.” It violates the femininity paradigm either way - if we want them, then we want bad boys, and tsk tsk we all know what happens to ladies who run with the wrong crowd.
HAHAHAHA SERIOUSLY. Because, you know, in the grand scheme of things? Angel and Stefan are WORSE. Spike and Damon WISH they could be as evil and village-massacre-y as those guys. But the first type of men are deemed (relatively) acceptable to love in their worst mass-murdering stages because… IDK, they're the male protagonists? They don't serve as Fanservice so much? Who knows.
And then if we relate to the bad boys, more than their good girl prey, then what are we saying? We’re relating to the party with agency, to the active party rather than the passive one, to the object rather than the subject… But if we feel like we’re Damon and it’s fun, we’re now experiencing popular culture in a way that’s usually reserved for men. They’re excellent pictures of the way the sets of characteristics we label “masculine” and “feminine” overlap in all of us.
THIS WHOLE PARAGRAPH IS FLAWLESS. And full of truth. And, you know, it's not a zero-sum thing. You can identify with both parties. But I would say that Damon (who is consistently depicted as a more active agent within the narrative) is more immediately identifiable, whereas you have to WORK to identify with Elena (and I think that is more deliberate on the part of the writers than you would think). Which leads to a lot of "WHY AM I LIKE THIS". Well, at least, it does for me. lmao. BUT YOU, YOU I LIKE.
In conclusion: I WISH TO MARRY THIS POST. WHAT SAY?
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Yes. And - again, it's fine to like them? I'm not saying people shouldn't, obviously. But there's not this BEWILDERMENT at WHAT POSSIBLE EXPLANATION there could be, this idea that they're so self-evidently slimy and awful that there MUST be some girly foolishness leading us in the wrong direction, because the Angel/Stefan masculinity is presumed to be an actual reason to like them.
And, you know, it's not a zero-sum thing. You can identify with both parties. But I would say that Damon (who is consistently depicted as a more active agent within the narrative) is more immediately identifiable, whereas you have to WORK to identify with Elena (and I think that is more deliberate on the part of the writers than you would think).
Oh, completely. And I think this is a part of what allows Elena to be as thoroughly-drawn as she is? Because she's also a very traditionally feminine character, but, because the show's not leaning on that as a presumption. It's allowed to be a part of her character, the way it is for real people.
THIS POST ACCEPTS.
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And YES YES YES to this entire comment. YES. I will never not be annoyed at the blatant double standard with regards to Angel vs. Spike and Stefan vs. Damon (though I will say that part of that, I think, has to do with how the former guys are brought into the show as "good guys" and we learn about their evils after the fact, versus Damon and Spike who are introduced as "bad guys"). And, you know, Faith and Katherine make the whole thing messier, too.
ANYWAY. I agree.
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Yes to your parenthesis about Angel/Stefan being introduced as "good guys" and Spike/Damon as "bad guys". First impressions seem to really stick with people. Le sigh.
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And I don't think that's a narrative issue, at least not with Kat and Stefan. Stefan...doesn't out and out call it what it is, but he does talk about "coming to terms with what she did to him." It's fair to recognize being more viscerally affected by one or the other, but I think we the audience at some point have to take a little responsibility for reading in "monster in the bushes" and "victim-who-isn't" narratives.
Faith and Xander are far more worrisome in the narrative and in our reactions to them, but that's a whole other can of worms.
We're talking about vampires, dude. We're talking about symbols of sexual repression.
WORRRRRD, I love this point.
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