Comments | pocochina: nothing even resembling an organized post. just contrarianism.

pocochina

nothing even resembling an organized post. just contrarianism.

Apr 28, 2011 20:19

The Wessay may get finished some day after all. I don't know what possessed me to re-watch AtS S3, but I went for it and am now sucked into the first few episodes of S4 but S3 is pretty brilliant too. Obviously my huge pro-Wes bias is below! locked because it got a little acerbic and ranty, so, fair warning.

( love can be a terrible thing )

btvs/ats, btvs/ats: wwp is my boy, rant

Comments 52

local_max April 29 2011, 01:12:00 UTC

YAY THOUGHTS I love every word and obviously I agree on the Cordelia bits ( ... )

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sunclouds33 April 29 2011, 02:11:44 UTC

The issue isn't so much that it's 'dark' as that he is a bit blind to the way he can be manipulated by English father figures who make claims to rationality. And it's pretty galling to assume that Fred and Gunn are so gone on the Angel-train that they will refuse to listen to him if he's right and not have any valid positions if they're wrong.
See, I agree wholeheartedly that Wes has his emotional spots like always wanting to make the tough, manful decision or being easily manipulated by British logical men. However, I actually think that Wesley ended up being proven rather right after the fact that Fred and Gunn are so much on Angel's side that they wouldn't listen to Wesley. I generally don't like to make "proven right after the fact" arguments and I'll even agree that Fred and Gunn hadn't proven such Angel-obeisance. However that Angel gets no repercussions from them about trying to suffocate a human, a former partner in his hospital bed makes me think that Wesley was right to assume that Gunn and Fred were carried away with Angel- ( ... )

Thread 32

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pocochina April 29 2011, 02:19:09 UTC

EVIL IS NOT THE CLAP. YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST.

-I always read Wes approaching Holtz as sort of... reconnaissance and a warning to Holtz to back off

I like it!

Fred and Gunn shouldn't have taken sides. And I was disappointed that Cordy flat out refused to even see Wes and get his side of the story.

Yeah. And it was one thing to stay with Angel, and Fred in particular does at least give him the time of day, but quite another for Gunn and Cordelia not to think about it from Wesley's perspective, at all, ever. I had my throat cut and all my friends abandoned me is...actually a legit reason to be a little cranky. IMO.

What a departure from Angel's epiphany at the end of S2 (which I know you take issue with as well, but it resonated for me). It shouldn't be about DESTINY and how speshul you are--it should be about doing the right thing because it's the right thing to do. Sometimes without reward or recognition.

I mean, this is kind of why I take issue with Epiphany. I agree with Angel that good is worth doing whether or not there is ( ... )

ever_neutral April 29 2011, 02:33:19 UTC

And it was one thing to stay with Angel, and Fred in particular does at least give him the time of day, but quite another for Gunn and Cordelia not to think about it from Wesley's perspective, at all, ever. I had my throat cut and all my friends abandoned me is...actually a legit reason to be a little cranky. IMO.

lolol, I rant so much about this in my Wessay. (Which will NEVER BE FINISHED.) People will be cowed.

pocochina April 29 2011, 05:04:35 UTC

*enables*

Thread 5

sunclouds33 April 29 2011, 01:41:31 UTC

I agree so much with all of your Cordelia thoughts. And the meta of Cordelia's S3 hair can't be emphasized enough.

Angel is his own worst enemy on AtS, and so the creature he destroyed is a family man, a renegade hunter of demons with an adoring crew. Utterly self-righteous, hilariously overdramatic, willing to destroy his child and make a deal with the devil - Holtz is Angel’s past come back to haunt him, his present lampooned, and his future taken terrifying shape.

Awesome insight!

Wesley here, and Willow there, really are making the best choices they can. We're supposed to condemn them because HOW COULD THEY FORGET that their respective superbuddies are such special snowflakes that the most unlikely possibility is OBVIOUSLY the correct one, but that's a terribly irresponsible way to make decisions. (That's a great message for the kiddies! Push your friend out a window, because MAYBE SHE CAN FLY, YOU DON'T KNOW!!!) The world is harsh and it's cruel and sometimes everyone involved makes the best decision they can and things ( ... )

pocochina April 29 2011, 02:23:23 UTC

I KNEW YOU WOULD UNDERSTAND.

And yeah, it's not that I don't like Cordelia, because I do! But nobody could live up to the standard that's set by the S3 nonsense, and a character who could would be boring and entirely unsympathetic, so it ends up being discordant.

pixxelpuss April 29 2011, 02:43:01 UTC

I've be LJ-AWOL for awhile, but this is an awesome post. I miss you.

pocochina April 29 2011, 03:54:30 UTC

( ... )

ever_neutral April 29 2011, 02:50:26 UTC

HMMMMMMMM. Haha, see, ITA with your Wes-sympathy, but weirdly enough, I do hold Wes responsible for cutting the others off? I think, like local_max said, the problem with Wesley (and Willow) is that they're extraordinarily smart people, and used to almost always being RIGHT, that there is a bit of tunnel vision going on (for lack of a better phrase). Wes is so focused on achieving the goal, and he thinks that nobody will be able to help him, because he thinks... idk, that he's the only one 'tainted' enough to do what needs to be done? On one level I find that very admirable, because he's not prioritizing his personal happiness and relationships (like Fred and Gunn undoubtedly do) above what he believes is the right thing. But on the other hand, completely sacrificing your personal relationships - choosing to cut his friends out of the decision in case he couldn't trust them - doesn't seem like the wisest solution, either. To Fred and Gunn, the "betrayal" probably comes from what they deem as a lack of respect from Wesley. It probably fuels ( ... )

pocochina April 29 2011, 04:18:48 UTC

Yeah. I think there's a big element of for-their-own-good mixed in there as well - right or wrong, he's not going to drag them down with him - and he really does think he has to be a big champ-ass loner about it (because, what else has he ever experienced himself as?).

But given what he knew at the time, there were a lot of potential downsides to getting them involved - if they all left, they'd be easier to find; if they knew and stayed, Angel might do something insanely violent; if they stopped him and the prophecy was true or even if it wasn't....

yeah, my mind works way too much like his.

because he thinks... idk, that he's the only one 'tainted' enough to do what needs to be done?

oh, this, so much.

it's necessary for Wesley's arc. Especially with Gunn, there is a good!Gunn/bad!Wesley dichotomy established, and it's necessary for Wes to revisit being the ~black sheep/disappointment in order to... confront his demons?

totally true! I just forgot how heavy-handed it was.

it's admirable that even when all his worst fears ( ... )