In conclusion, I like slash.

[pearl_o]

(This entry is mostly about boyslash, and not so much femslash or het, which I've read less and not noticed the issues as much.)

A conversation over in kalpurna's journal about power dynamics and ass-fucking here -- while pretty interesting on its own! -- has sent my thoughts on a vaguely related tangent.

Comments

[zvi_likes_tv]

Hmm, I never really think about pitching and catching, but I always like the stories when at least one of the guys expresses some sort of preference -- one of the guys is like, "Yeah, actually I don't like having things shoved up my ass," or one of them say, "I don't feel like I'm actually having sex unless something is being shoved up my ass, so I should bottom all the time".

Like, the tradeoff model is invisible, but the stories where one or both has opinions about sexual positions and strong preferences always feels more real.

[pearl_o]

Yeah, I think that's especially true in fandoms or stories where you can assume the guys involved are relatively sexually experienced. Although I suppose even in the other case, that's still something that can develop over the story.

[mosca]

Hey, awesome post that I think is right on in every way, and I'm not just saying that because you namechecked me. :) I'm used to the old-school fandom trope where the same guy is always always on the bottom and his asshole is pretty much a mangina, but now that you point it out, fandom has shifted/is shifting to the equally disastrous "they are completely equal in all things" cliche.

Since you brought up "Hearts Beat Time Out" (which is the only one of my skating fics that makes a point of establishing a character as a full-time bottom), I really was trying to draw attention to how often Johnny was being penetrated but totally in control of the sex act. Like, "Here's the position I want you to be in when you fuck me, and here's how I want you to do it." Topping from the bottom

[callmesandy]

I was reading along about power issues and I was thinking, "what about figure skaters ..." and then pearl_o mentioned it right there and I was like, hahahahaha.

So, um, yay! all around for smart people I know.

[pearl_o]

Take the fear of inequality that we see in m/m fic, multiply it by fifty, and that's the fear of inequality that I see in femslash.

Oh, that's totally fascinating; I hadn't realized that was the case, but it does make a lot of sense.

Since you brought up "Hearts Beat Time Out" (which is the only one of my skating fics that makes a point of establishing a character as a full-time bottom), I really was trying to draw attention to how often Johnny was being penetrated but totally in control of the sex act. Like, "Here's the position I want you to be in when you fuck me, and here's how I want you to do it." Topping from the bottom.*nods* And I definitely think that was effective in that story. And on another tangent, I wonder if one of the things I find so interesting about reading your skating RPS is that you really do get to work in a story where the lead is, canonically/in-real-footage, very much on the fey and fabulous side. So you're playing with a whole different idea of masculinity than the "manly man!!!" straight boys media

[mosca]

Yeah, several of my protagonists fall on the fey side, and you can't really be a figure skater and project a manly image -- it's a whole different spectrum of masculinity, ranging from totally androgynous to sensitively masculine artist. But the other side of the coin is, in other respects, they're probably more masculine than most of the men being written about in other fandoms: they're athletes with ripped, muscular bodies, and they're incredibly competitive and aggressive.

[somewhatdeluded]

Oh, man. This rocks. You rock. YOU OWN THE INTERNETS. You just said everything I have thought while twitching and clicking the back button halfway through a sex scene, ever, only way more coherently than I will ever manage.

The other thing about the power dynamic issue is that making sex be consciously about power dynamics, for the characters, on an intellectual level, just doesn't make sense. I don't really care whether it's we-must-trade-topping-and-bottoming-because-we-are-equals or I-am-in-charge-so-I-am-always-going-to-be-pitching; that's just not how it works. Most people don't really think about sex that they are having in that way. They may be aware of those issues, and those issues may inform their sexual choices, but most of the time, when one is having sex, the thought process is more along the lines of "HOT. WANT. NOW

[pearl_o]

Heeeeee. Although, you know, some of our characters do tend to be superhuman freaks would overthink each and every thing in their lives if possible.

[somewhatdeluded]

Hahaha, okay, yes, I take it back. CONSTABLE BENTON FRASER R.C.M.P. would totally be thinking, "Three days ago, Ray was right about something, and ever since he's been smirking in a self-satisfied way that I find both irritating and strangely arousing. I think I'm going to penetrate him anally to show him exactly who wears the jodhpurs in theis relationship. Please, Ray, put your hands on the back of the sofa, and assume the position."

Meanwhile Ray is going, "Mmm. Mountie cock."

[pearl_o]

he's been smirking in a self-satisfied way that I find both irritating and strangely arousing.

Ahahahahahaha. That is F/K in a NUTSHELL.

[cathexys]

I think the expectation of both guys bottoming at some point is just about equality but also about vulnerability, i.e., I think there may be a cultural conception that definitely has informed slash that bottoming is an emotionally vulnerable position, which thus allow it to shorthand as commitment and love. In other words, I read the leading up to the bottoming scene trajectory as a physical conceit for the emotional intimacy that develops over the course of the story.

Which might be why there are so much fewer bottom on top stories (which would make some sense for first times and I actually find quite hot :)...the bottoming functions as a loss of control and to be willing to do that seems to symbolize love/intimacy.

[As for the underlying bottoming=vulnerability and its consequences for het girls *g*: since most of our characters and most of us do exist within a sexist and heteronormative environment, I think that the stories possibly reflect rather than prescribe???]

[pearl_o]

I think there may be a cultural conception that definitely has informed slash that bottoming is an emotionally vulnerable position, which thus allow it to shorthand as commitment and love.

Hmm, I think you definitely have a really good point here -- that's definitely something that seems to be in play for all these stories. I guess I just don't find it particularly interesting as a conceit *myself*, so it's not immediately obvious to me? Hmmm.

[As for the underlying bottoming=vulnerability and its consequences for het girls *g*: since most of our characters and most of us do exist within a sexist and heteronormative environment, I think that the stories possibly reflect rather than prescribe???]

Sigh. Yes, I'm sure it's a reflection, but ... come on, people! Fuck the man! Own your sexuality!

[cathexys]

well...i've thought quite a bit about the way physicality stands in for psychology in slash...it's actually fascinating to look at the way physical connectedness metaphorically presents emotional connectedness (eh...I talk at length about it here, but the central argument is how physicality functions in a lot of stories, not just in terms of sex but as partners relying on the other's physical support etc.)

as for owning our sexuality :D i think we're fighting two fights, though...our own *and* theirs...i.e., even if i don't think bottoming represents vulnerability...will John??? If he's written as all gay and sex and bottom positive, then yeah, no vulnerability there...but he might also be the quick hand and blowjobs off base, so intimacy itself might be the bigger issue?

[pearl_o]

i think we're fighting two fights, though...our own *and* theirs...

Right, absolutely. I think figuring out the character's approach to their sexuality is really crucial to figuring how to write them, and like I said in the entry, they're probably not the same as ours. So there are definitely contexts where all these assumptions or shortcuts DO work, and make sense for the stories and the characters, and are totally effective. So, yeah, bottoming in a story for the first time can be an excellent signifier of the emotional intimacy. But of course, it's not the only option for signifier, either; there are so many ways to get there, whether physical (kissing, bed vs other locations, staying the night, shy-or-body-conscious-partner allowing the other to look, whatever) or, of course, the more emotionally obvious bits that everyone quotes as their favorite parts of the story. Heh

[carla_scribbles]

*laughs*

See, this is why I may never actually write slash. Once I started having to decide the significance of whose bits go where how often, I would literally get even less work done than usual.

Er, that sounds dismissive. I don't mean it to be. This is interesting, and I'm just not capable of rational thought at the moment.

[pearl_o]

*grins* It's okay, I understand.