SPN meta: Red Tape and Demon Blood

Feb 15, 2009 21:41

So here's a lil something that's had me puzzled since 4.03. Exactly what rules must demons abide by? Clearly there are some; crossroads demons are bound to honor their contracts, and Azazel whines about red tape in 2.01. So how have these rules affected the Winchesters' relationships with demons - particularly Sam's ( Read more... )

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erinrua February 16 2009, 06:40:57 UTC
From the minute I saw the flashback of Azazel dripping his blood in baby!Sam's mouth, I have thought of it as a demonic sacrement. (Sez the Methodist preacher's daughter, LOL.) I can't view it any other way.

Good point about Cold Oak being the equivalent of demonic confirmation!

As for demonic communion ... Oh, honey. You can surely guess what my Bat-signal screamed this last time Ruby confronted Sam, and he said, "It's not just my psychic thing," or words to that affect. Oh, Sam? You mean there's more?

So yeah. I'm ... trying not to think about it too hard, because the possibilities are really, truly chilling. Sam's got flabby powers? So just how *does* he get stronger?

Nope. Not looking. Too scary. *wibbles*

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patita_fea February 16 2009, 06:50:57 UTC
Somehow, I get the feeling that demonic communion is likely to be a lot more literal and horrifying than "transubstantiation" or any of the other concepts attached to some bread and wine.

But the reason I like this interpretation is that Sam has a choice. He's been "dedicated," but he isn't owned.

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erinrua February 17 2009, 03:44:27 UTC
The demonic communion idea is precisely why I'm so very leery of what *else* Sam is doing with Ruby. :-s

But the fact Sam still has choice is the one thing gives me hope.

Argh. How can I be so invested in people that don't even exist??? *face-palm*

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aasaylva February 16 2009, 12:54:05 UTC
Ooooh, very interesting thought and I like the idea of baptism-confirmation-communion in a parallel demonic "religion" - the Medival idea of black masses went along the same line. In fact, what I was always reminded of was the way Merlin was sayed to have been conceived: by a human mother and sired by the devil to parallel Jesus, stemming from a human mother as well and sired by God. In Sam's case, the human mother remains (and her name is, of course, Mary)but the demon blood might be viewed as some sort of step-fathership. The YED even claimed his blood to be better than a mother's milk, so he entertains a very physical idea of parenthood. Which - if taken literal - opens up some quite apalling ideas concerning the relationship between John and Sam. If John was "ousted" as father by the demon, as far as he is concerned, Sam is not his son, but a sort of changeling - and I can't help but think of the ep. "The kids are alright" with the mother trying to kill her changeling daughter to avoid further evil. John did much the same thing ( ... )

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patita_fea February 16 2009, 19:04:49 UTC
Hey, there!

The YED even claimed his blood to be better than a mother's milk, so he entertains a very physical idea of parenthood. Which - if taken literal - opens up some quite apalling ideas concerning the relationship between John and Sam.

There's cultural baggage that comes with this notion, too. The person most likely to abuse a kid is a stepfather/mother's boyfriend/grown male who is not the kid's biological father. *cringe* Doubtless John was horrified when he found out about Azazel's interest in Sammy, and I can imagine the changeling comparison crossing his mind and leaving him really unsettled.

But I'm not sure I'd take it as far as saying that John was ousted as the father. Maybe the "baptism" ritual conferred something like godfatherhood. A role as spiritual guide.

Which makes me wonder how much John really knew about Mary's demon connection.I think I remember him telling Azazel that he'd known about Sammy's demonic connection "for a while." But I agree with you that whatever he knew, he didn't find out from Mary ( ... )

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tahirire February 16 2009, 13:53:43 UTC
I think your thinky makes sense. :-)

I do like to point out though, that Azazel didn't actually kill everyone's mother. Ava's mother, for example, was just fine. He shows regret about Mary and tells Sam it was just wrong place, wrong time. I think if Mary had never gone into the room, she would have lived. They would have grown up normal, and Sam would have ended up dying in Cold Oak with no one left behind to even know where he was. *wibble*

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patita_fea February 16 2009, 19:07:09 UTC
Yeah, I think it's interesting that mama dying was not a necessary component of whatever ritual Azazel had going on. However, it seems that not being interrupted was uber-important. Was he trying to keep the dose of blood a secret? Was it a problem of not wanting witnesses?

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tahirire February 16 2009, 23:47:45 UTC
I think it was. Whatever he was doing, you know Mary would have raised hell over it. He didn't want anyone in the family to know what happened to Sammy.

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datenshiblue February 17 2009, 13:39:35 UTC
Uh... Sam did die in Cold Oak... :O

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monicawoe February 16 2009, 14:06:23 UTC
This is a fantastic theory! I believe that what Sam's been doing with Ruby will prove to be akin to a communion. One way or another, it has to be some sort of acceptance of the demonic power in him.

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patita_fea February 16 2009, 19:09:39 UTC
Hello!

One way or another, it has to be some sort of acceptance of the demonic power in him.

Most definitely. In fact, more than just making use of the powers he's been cursed/gifted with, I think the Shady Sammy Hobby will turn out to an active pursuit of more demonic power.

*shivers*

Thanks so much for reading. :)

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monicawoe February 17 2009, 00:19:42 UTC
"the Shady Sammy Hobby will turn out to an active pursuit of more demonic power."

Agreed completely! Sam has decided that he has to be stronger than Lilith, and I think he's at a point where he'll do just about anything to ensure that.

This season makes me so happy and uncomfortably anxious at the same time- I love it!

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yourlibrarian February 16 2009, 17:11:06 UTC
Exactly what rules must demons abide by?

An excellent question -- and why do they exist? Who enforces them? Though I have to say that my first thought when you asked that question, was regarding the laws of physics. How do they teleport around? How does a demon who is essentially smoke, create blood? Why do they leave sulfur behind?

Could the events in Cold Oak be considered a confirmation ritual?

That is a great way of putting it.

What, then, would equate to communion? Could it be whatever shady activity Ruby was referring to in "Heaven and Hell"

Hmmm! I like that idea too. Though I'm getting squeamish thinking of the "eat of my flesh" bit -- although that would certainly make Metamorphosis seem more anvilicious than ever.

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patita_fea February 16 2009, 19:20:33 UTC
Though I have to say that my first thought when you asked that question, was regarding the laws of physics. How do they teleport around? How does a demon who is essentially smoke, create blood? Why do they leave sulfur behind?

You know, I think that might have been the kind of thing I intended to talk about when I opened the browser window. And then I started typing and got distracted by baptism and various spiritual commitments...

The teleportation, the smokiness, and the sulfur all strike me as Applied Phlebotinum. That's how demons work cos that's how they work, and if they didn't leave sulfur behind, then how else would the boys know they'd been there? But the question of who enforces the rules which compel demons to honor contracts... that's a big one. Is the SPN!God an omnipotent orderer of the universe, and even the denizens of hell have to play by his rules? Do the top dogs in hell enforce rules as a way of maintaining control?

Though I'm getting squeamish thinking of the "eat of my flesh" bit -- although that would ( ... )

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yourlibrarian February 16 2009, 22:32:10 UTC
The teleportation, the smokiness, and the sulfur all strike me as Applied Phlebotinum.

Oh definitely, although I've always got the feeling that SPN does more hand waving than other shows I've seen. And I suspect that they've actually gotten these questions from the network given some of what was written in HB.

Speaking of Sam's blood and explanations for things, I thought it was interesting when in FB, Dean comments that Lucy has gotten a dose of the nastiest virus around. It had never been explained how these vampires were created, though I'd always thought when thinking about BtVS vampires that it was essentially a viral transmission that required the time spent "dead" for it to spread and take over the body. In FB, Gordon also makes a point of telling the victim that what was important was that he ingested the blood. Also, wasn't it also a virus we saw in Croatoan?

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patita_fea February 17 2009, 15:38:06 UTC
Most of the time the hand waving doesn't bother me, if only because so much of their mythology is based on actual lore. For me, they have a little extra credibility to burn because I can go look up their beasties independently. *shrug*

'Course, no amount of credibility can buy you grace in a bottle. *headdesk*

Speaking of Sam's blood and explanations for things
That is incredibly good point. We've seen a hell of a lot of evil infecting people via blood on this show. The more I think about that, the more convinced I am that Azazel's little dose to baby Sammy was a lot more dangerous than, say, Ruby would have us believe.

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