Leaving the debate

[neva_ivan]

I am abandoning the debate on gay rights, which is still running on Robyrt ’s journal.  I’m not abandoning it because I  think I’m wrong, or I don’t think it’s important, or because I feel in any way intimidated by the “points” made by the other side.  Rather I feel that I’ve said everything I have to say, several times in fact, and my responses to

Comments

[similarmistake]

What a bunch of completely ignorant, bigoted dingbats. I know, namecalling accomplishes nothing, but it never ceases to amaze me how a nation that's supposed to be so forward-thinking can be so... ridiculously close-minded and entirely lacking in sense.

I agree, leaving the debate is probably wise. Trying to put intelligent statements in front of people who have no sense is frustrating, to say the least.

[neva_ivan]

I agree. I think that when faced with this I just can't be fair and reasonable, and it quickly deteriorates. For example I posted one comment where my title line said "So, what law school did you go to?" That's not constructive, but I feel so justified, because really, if someone hasn't studied the law, why do they feel qualified to say how permitting gay marriage would change divorce and child custody law. Grrrr. See, I'm going overboard again already.

If one starts out from a fundamentally flawed concept then any "logical" debate stemming from that will be flawed.

[rendergirl]

Oh I get why they are annoying. It's all I can do not to go over there and start commenting myself, but I'll just end up getting really pissed off. Better to let ignorant people alone.

[neva_ivan]

Yeah, except we did leave them alone and look what happened during the election.

[neva_ivan]

Thanks--that's definitely some good perspective! Yeah, I'm not sure any Darwinian justice is working in our favor. I imagine the highly closed-minded are also apt to breed too (not that I'm denigrating those who choose to breed!). I'm just observing that if they have a whole lot of kids and raise them to believe the same, they may increase above 50%.

Though btw, I still think of your post regarding it being safer in the belly of the beast rather in its path. It is sometimes comforting.

[gossamerfaery]

I wish that I hadn't just read that list. Those were so extremely bad that I feel like hyperventilating now! LOL I think the last one was probably the most offensive. "I'm not judging you here"!!!! LOLOLOLOLOL Oh, I'd say that person is judging a lot of people, and letting you know that they are morally superior while they're at it!!

[gossamerfaery]

I just read the first comment in robyrt's journal, this line: the homosexual lifestyle is being promoted as fun and humorous (on television, for example) cracks me up. The television also portrays heterosexual lifestyles as fun and humorous. People are egocentric in that they cannot see outside of their own bias. I have heard so many people say, "Why do they have to push it on us (being gay)?" While at the same time I have to hear a heterosexual guy say "Nice tits" or grab my ass. I have to hear how hot some girl is from a hetero guy. I would say that gays could easily argue that the heterosexual lifestyle is being shoved down their throat at every turn. Anyway, I can't even read that discussion right now because it hurts my head to even try to figure out how to combat those ways of thinking. I don't understand why hating something is preferrable to just loving people for who they are.

Well bless you for trying!!! XOXO

[neva_ivan]

Well, don't bless me too much... I'm getting out of control.

It's so true. People are in everyone's face about their orientation--you can't help it. If anything most gay people hold back more, because they are afraid. I don't mean that necessarily about offensive stuff, but just how I say all the time that I'm with Sean, or Sean and I went somewhere or whatever. So anyone can guess I'm with a guy. I don't do it to make a statement or anything--it's just talking about my life, and everyone should be able to do that.

[gossamerfaery]

I totally agree with you. It really comes down to being able to share things in our lives with eachother. My male neighbor always gossiped to me about the men he thought were hot or that he was dating. It was not any different than my girlfriends telling me who they thought were hot and who they wanted to date. Yep, that's a good way to put it. It never used to cross my mind that people would think my gay friend was trying to push his lifestyle on them just because he talked about his daily life. *sigh*

[robyrt]

This is you: "I think that as a liberal I so often find myself choosing my words so carefully and trying very, very hard to be overly nice. I aim for facts not insults."

This is also you, in this very post: "Internet debaters do not even really read anything you write."

'Nuff said.

[neva_ivan]

Yes, it's true. I said both of those things. I kind of stupidly assumed nobody was actually reading my journal. I posted like 90 million posts that never got a single comment--except for that one you linked to--so I was not really thinking you'd come over and see this stuff

[robyrt]

Ironically, I didn't even know you used your journal until a friend of mine (who hasn't posted or commented or anything) pointed me to one of these entries. There's nothing wrong with ranting on your own LJ and cleaning it up for the rest of the world, or even taking potshots at people (like Mr. Marney in the above example) who haven't done their homework, but you can't assume that anything that mentions your real name will go unnoticed for long on the Internet (especially LJ, which is a very friends-oriented system). Just be glad you know to friends-lock the stuff now, when the stakes are still low. :)

And I may be misunderstanding you, but I don't think online debates have any sort of "I will read all points in all related posts before making my argument about any one of these points" license agreement. Neither do real-life debates.

[neva_ivan]

Thanks. No, there is no internet debate contract--but it does kind of take the point out of engaging in debate if it's unlikely anyone is actually going to consider what you're saying.