While I enjoy it in salads or in this pasta dish, I'm not sure I would eat it like that. Otoh, I do sometimes just eat crunchy lettuce leaves by themselves like potato chips, so I guess I get it.
A lot of people do see class issues with Jason. The thing is, originally, once they retconned his origin to make him from Crime Alley etc., he was kind of angry, but it was more just that that was a possible danger. It wasn't his fault that he died. But yeah, since then characters tend to talk about him as if it was his fault
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that Bruce was blind to the ways he couldn't really serve Jason's needs.
Yeah, that's kind of how I see it? Because even just from the flashbacks in the movie, Bruce makes it about how Jason's attitude makes the job harder, not about why what he did was wrong. I mean, sure, obviously where Jason came from is going to affect his worldview, but I really dislike the implication that what happened to him was his own fault because of it.
But I don't mind it when it sounds like Bruce being in denial because Bruce can be screwed up that way.
It's different when it's the character vs. the writer, though, you know? And obviously, I can't speak to the comics and how the writers views vs. the characters come through in any comprehensive sense, but I get the impression that it's more an editorial decision than a character one.
A lot of people at scans_daily see a class-based "he couldn't help being bad due to where he came from" subtext in a lot of comics-related Jason Todd stuff, and it ticks them off. They also prefer him as an anti-hero, while it seems that some creators at DC want him to be a villain because... they can't see in shades of gray. Or something.
Heh. Yeah, I have gotten that impression. It's one thing for characters to espouse that kind of classism, but another for the writers to, you know?
I also prefer him as an anti-hero, because it makes a lot more sense to me. Of course, I also choose to ignore the comics where he does really shitty things, so it's easier for me. *g*
Jason - gods, that's a tough one. Before the retcon people just disliked him because they, well, just disliked him. Post-retcon there were definitely some hints of class issues, but I have always read that as a way for Bruce and others to deal with the fact that they failed Jason horribly. It is hard for me to see the class issues because it is something that I'm quite blind to (even in RL). From an objective point of view, um, maybe, there is definitely enough reader who view it that way. From a personal POV, I don't really see it as class issues
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Post-retcon there were definitely some hints of class issues, but I have always read that as a way for Bruce and others to deal with the fact that they failed Jason horribly.
Yeah, I think the thing I don't have a clear sense of is how much of that is the characters, and how much of it is an editorial decision. I don't mind that Bruce is in denial about why he's at fault in what happened to Jason, but I do mind if the writers don't seem to understand, you know?
Post Red Hood, it seems DC wanted to make him into a villain and tried to communicate to fans that Jason Todd is a complete nutcase now. No matter what he was, no matter the reason why he went on a vengeance kick, he cannot be saved now. I, personally think, DC was not successful in this. Not one bit.
Yeah, it sounds a lot more like bad writing to me than a natural arc for the characters.
The problem - authorial intent count for shit if they can't show/convey it on an emotional level. Hand-waving the horrible things that happened to Jason does not make it easier for
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I AM EXCITED FOR YOUR WOODCHUCK EXPERIMENT.
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Yeah, that's kind of how I see it? Because even just from the flashbacks in the movie, Bruce makes it about how Jason's attitude makes the job harder, not about why what he did was wrong. I mean, sure, obviously where Jason came from is going to affect his worldview, but I really dislike the implication that what happened to him was his own fault because of it.
But I don't mind it when it sounds like Bruce being in denial because Bruce can be screwed up that way.
It's different when it's the character vs. the writer, though, you know? And obviously, I can't speak to the comics and how the writers views vs. the characters come through in any comprehensive sense, but I get the impression that it's more an editorial decision than a character one.
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I also prefer him as an anti-hero, because it makes a lot more sense to me. Of course, I also choose to ignore the comics where he does really shitty things, so it's easier for me. *g*
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Yeah, I think the thing I don't have a clear sense of is how much of that is the characters, and how much of it is an editorial decision. I don't mind that Bruce is in denial about why he's at fault in what happened to Jason, but I do mind if the writers don't seem to understand, you know?
Post Red Hood, it seems DC wanted to make him into a villain and tried to communicate to fans that Jason Todd is a complete nutcase now. No matter what he was, no matter the reason why he went on a vengeance kick, he cannot be saved now. I, personally think, DC was not successful in this. Not one bit.
Yeah, it sounds a lot more like bad writing to me than a natural arc for the characters.
The problem - authorial intent count for shit if they can't show/convey it on an emotional level. Hand-waving the horrible things that happened to Jason does not make it easier for ( ... )
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