Male validation in romance

[misstopia]

Note: Everything in this post is just my opinion.  I don't intend to suggest anything about how anyone else should feel or what they should or shouldn't like, I honestly don't want that responsibility.  I feel like I have to say this because LJ/fandom/whatnot can be very sensitive since ids are relatively exposed,a and colliding ids can be

Comments

[tabacoychanel]

because I'm not really a trope aficionado
Back with more later but methinks the lady doth protest too much. ;)

[misstopia]

I just mean that, like, I don't have any systematic way to approach this. I didn't have any tvtropes.org pages to link to! I suppose I did name She Is All Grown Up though.

[tabacoychanel]

I agree that "Arya is cool because Jon likes her" is true to a far greater extent than "Jon is cool because Arya likes him" but with a couple of caveats:

(a) given their age gap it's hard to imagine it being otherwise
(b) the imbalance in coolness factor has more to do with fan perception than characterization, b/c as far as I can tell Arya thinks she is the shit and she doesn't need external confirmation of her awesomeness
(c)I don't think Jon is a repressed man? He has certain traits generally associated with repressed men, but in general I think his occasional bouts of manpain are few and far between, in fact my reading of him is that he's a fairly optimistic kid with a wicked sense of humor
(d)the appeal of Jon/Arya, to me, is the whole us-against-the-world mentality. They're the outcasts who are (or will eventually) "make it" and throw their success in everybody's faces. Or not. I can see why She's All Grown Up is problematic - because it implies that it's the male's recognition of her cuteness/hotness/intelligence/mad

[misstopia]

(a) Oh totally, but accordingly, I don't tend to like older brother/younger sister incest as much. I'm not saying it's problematic necessarily, more that it just doesn't work for me. I don't think I'd have the same reaction with older sister/younger brother, which wouldn't necessarily be my cuppa either, but it wouldn't be the same thing, and so to that means that I have some gendered issue here.

(b) I don't think Arya needs confirmation of her awesome, but of her burgeoning sexual appeal, I could see that. She's plain-faced in the beginning but as we go on we get comparisons to her beautiful aunt, and she's only just hitting adolescence and starting to get all kinds of nasty gross attention for it

[violaswamp]

Interesting points! Re: Brienne, I think you're right about her wanting validation from others whether they're men or women. I never got the sense that she felt approved as a woman because Jaime likes her.

[misstopia]

Yeah, I mean, looking at an outline of them on paper, I have to allow for it, but when I was reading there wasn't this moment where I felt like Brienne has now Made It because she got Jaime to like her. Plus, I think for me it helps that they started out with her in charge of him, she certainly wasn't looking for any approval from him then.

[firebluespinel]

Yes, I agree with violaswamp. I don't see Brienne as needing a man's validation as a woman so much as wanting everyone's validation in general. Brienne is what Sansa would call a true knight, and wants people to know it, acknowledge her as such, and give her the respect and chivalrous treatment such a distinction deserves. (Which, incidentally, is why she is so puzzled at not being taken seriously by Vargo Hoat and company--she expects them to let her keep her word to Catelyn just because she gave her word to Catelyn.) Being approved as a woman is secondary to being approved as a knight or as a person in general for her. Her crush on Renly aside, romance doesn't really enter into it...not yet, at least. (Though I'm sure the Brienne/Jaime and Brienne/Catelyn shippers would disagree

[misstopia]

I dunno, in my experience with other J/B shippers, I mean it is nice when you read about how Jaime sees Brienne's mad skillz in navigating him through the Riverlands, but it's also that his seeing it for the first time is us seeing it for the first time too, so it's not just that he approves, it's also that she's awesome and now we know it. And Jaime is taken as a valuable source for the appraisal but that's because he is a puissant warrior, really the big warrior figure of the series, and he would know

[gogoratchet]

You hit the nail on the head for why Stannis is my favorite character. As someone who has lived with/dated repressed/stoic men, the romanticizing of it is not something I'm interested in anymore.

As for J/B, I guess I feel like if Jaime is validation for Brienne, Brienne is validation for Jaime. It's not really a one sided thing there.

Lots of interesting stuff here. I'm sure I'll be back with more.

[misstopia]

(ETA: Yeah I think my dad's nature and the irritation it has caused me has a lot to do with my feelings.)

In the case of Ned, I would rather just view him as not being that repressed, if he's going to be likable and romantic fodder and whatnot. In the case of Tywin, I dunno, he is totally supposed to be impressive because he's an emotional robot, so I guess I need dysfunction present.

Yeah that's the thing about J/B, Brienne is Jaime's hero. OTOH, it is kind of that thing where the woman is the moralizing force and the man is the one whose soul needs to be saved, but I dunno, I think Brienne is more like a role model Jaime should emulate instead of a passive angel figure. He should behave as she does and not just as she says. That's how I see it anyhow.

[haremstress]

Interesting post! I've thought a lot about the whole "I AM THE ONLY WOMAN WHO CAN MELT HIS HEART OF STONE" thing, because it's a big part of what set off the paranormal romance fad in YA. In particular, Edward's like 107 or some shit and Bella's the first woman he's ever loved. As horrifying as I personally find Edward, I can see the appeal here. You're right, it's an ego stroking thing.

What do you think about the trope -- I've mentioned this to you before -- where a woman isn't necessarily out of a man's league, she just hates his guts for whatever reason, and then through the magic of his charm and/or good heart he manages to win her over by the end of the story? I personally find that one very irksome because it's (a) treating the woman as a prize and (b) undermining her initial perceptions of the guy. Sure, we've all had incorrect first impressions. But it seems to happen a lot more to attractive women in fiction than it does to anyone in real life

Look a BYT icon!

[misstopia]

Yeah, it's very much Rhaegar/Lyanna Edward/Bella, at least from what I've read of Twilight (as you know I haven't read the book). And I do think it's this product that gets packaged and sold a lot to girls. I wish I had a better memory, I'd like to cite more examples to back my inclination up, but I feel like it must stand out to me as a pattern for a reason

[chacusha]

I definitely agree about there being something very flattering about being the *only* one a guy falls for. It makes you feel special and also kind of guarantees faithfulness on the guy's part, which is very romantic / comforting for a reader. I definitely see the appeal here.

Regarding the repressed woman version -- yeah I think this bugs me a lot, especially if the guy is a womanizer and known to be able to charm the ladies because it definitely gives the relationship an element of "conquest" rather than, say, growth/development. That's bothering. There are factors that make it better, though -- for example, how sympathetic the guy is (is he an overall good guy with some jerky qualities, or is he just a jerk?), the reasons why the main character's initial assessment was wrong, whether the guy changes believably into a better person, and whether the girl stays the way she is / changes into a better person (if I liked her at the beginning and she compromises her likable characteristics by the end for the guy... that will bother me).