Male validation in romance

[misstopia]

Note: Everything in this post is just my opinion.  I don't intend to suggest anything about how anyone else should feel or what they should or shouldn't like, I honestly don't want that responsibility.  I feel like I have to say this because LJ/fandom/whatnot can be very sensitive since ids are relatively exposed,a and colliding ids can be

Comments

[tabacoychanel]

because I'm not really a trope aficionado
Back with more later but methinks the lady doth protest too much. ;)

[misstopia]

I just mean that, like, I don't have any systematic way to approach this. I didn't have any tvtropes.org pages to link to! I suppose I did name She Is All Grown Up though.

[tabacoychanel]

I agree that "Arya is cool because Jon likes her" is true to a far greater extent than "Jon is cool because Arya likes him" but with a couple of caveats:

(a) given their age gap it's hard to imagine it being otherwise
(b) the imbalance in coolness factor has more to do with fan perception than characterization, b/c as far as I can tell Arya thinks she is the shit and she doesn't need external confirmation of her awesomeness
(c)I don't think Jon is a repressed man? He has certain traits generally associated with repressed men, but in general I think his occasional bouts of manpain are few and far between, in fact my reading of him is that he's a fairly optimistic kid with a wicked sense of humor
(d)the appeal of Jon/Arya, to me, is the whole us-against-the-world mentality. They're the outcasts who are (or will eventually) "make it" and throw their success in everybody's faces. Or not. I can see why She's All Grown Up is problematic - because it implies that it's the male's recognition of her cuteness/hotness/intelligence/mad

[misstopia]

(a) Oh totally, but accordingly, I don't tend to like older brother/younger sister incest as much. I'm not saying it's problematic necessarily, more that it just doesn't work for me. I don't think I'd have the same reaction with older sister/younger brother, which wouldn't necessarily be my cuppa either, but it wouldn't be the same thing, and so to that means that I have some gendered issue here.

(b) I don't think Arya needs confirmation of her awesome, but of her burgeoning sexual appeal, I could see that. She's plain-faced in the beginning but as we go on we get comparisons to her beautiful aunt, and she's only just hitting adolescence and starting to get all kinds of nasty gross attention for it

[tabacoychanel]

I don't think I'd have the same reaction with older sister/younger brother
It's a completely different gendered dynamic. I think with incest ships - hell, with childhood bffs ships - there's an inevitable aspect of hero-worship on the younger participant's part. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree about whether this one hits the DNW button, but on the whole I think when I came to fandom I didn't find the consensus too jarring because it was essentially my own opinion, ie. that Jon is cool and Arya is cool and together they are coolx2. All the comparisons to Lyanna bother me though because the trope of the ~naturally beautiful tomboy who's "one of the boys" until the day they discover she's got curves, that one gets old with me real fast.

[misstopia]

Yeah, there isn't a whole lot of Jon/Arya out there so it's really just about what everyone individually sees at this point, I think? It's one of those ships that gets talked about but I never actually see anything being done for. Maybe someone should change that ;)

I don't think my inability to see it is anything objective w.r.t. the state of gender issues, just fwiw. I know for a fact that I have some age issues with ships too, and it isn't always about rational things. I wouldn't ever argue that everyone should find Jon/Arya offputting, I totally get why it appeals, I just have a hard time getting into that position (yeah and that totally could change if the right fic came along ...)

Actually now that I think about it, Ned and Lyanna were 4 years apart and Jon and Arya 5, so yeah not really rational.

Now I kinda want to read some incest fic where a (slightly) younger brother admires/hero-worships his (slightly) older sister.

[tabacoychanel]

Ahahahaha I am writing a Jon/Arya fic. And by "writing" I mean I have this epic epic AU in my head where Jon Arryn is was never murdered, but Jon Snow still ends up going to the Wall, and now it's a couple years later and they're making festive at Winterfell for one of Benjen's rare visits. Meanwhile Arya is trying her damndest not to get married off. And 50% of the reason she turns to Jon is because she sees him as an escape from all this, but yeah that doesn't work out so well. God I've had this idea for months and I haven't even finished my one other ASOIAF fic = fail. Oh, self. I don't have any clear idea of where it's going but I know it won't end well. Cannot. Handle. Angst.

Also, I know you've probably not read A Series of Unfortunate Events nor seen the movie, but it's a kids series. Like, for leeeeetle kids. Nonetheless I think this fic fits the bill.

[misstopia]

Actually I do like Lemony Snicket, haven't seen the movie yet though :) *reads*