Male validation in romance

[misstopia]

Note: Everything in this post is just my opinion.  I don't intend to suggest anything about how anyone else should feel or what they should or shouldn't like, I honestly don't want that responsibility.  I feel like I have to say this because LJ/fandom/whatnot can be very sensitive since ids are relatively exposed,a and colliding ids can be

Comments

[lunylucy]

I kind of get where people come from when they feel like hot badass Jaime is there to validate poor homely Brienne.

While I can get that as well, I think Jaime/Brienne also has an element of Brienne validating Jaime. Especially if you consider that Brienne has no chapters in ASoS and all their interactions are seen through Jaime's eyes- ie we see how her character and actions affect him not the other way around. And in terms of validation- after Jaime gets his hand cut off he pretty much gives up on life, having lost his entire identity as SuperAwesomeKnight. But Brienne continues to take care of him and basically showing him what it means to be a true knight, which is what young Jaime started out wanting. So I see their relationship in terms of Jaime finding out that he doesn't need to be physically perfect (interpret that however you wish) to be valued.

tldr; this pairing has mutual validation and it's done well and that's why they're my OTP. I think.

[misstopia]

Yeah, just as gogoratchet said, I agree with that. I wish I could talk to someone who doesn't really ship them and see what they'd have to say to that, because the thing that I liked was that Brienne's validation of Jaime actually came off as more important than Jaime's validation of Brienne, to me. Brienne has all these other people who notice her awesome, like Hyle even. But she is pretty much the only one who comes to see any good in Jaime.

I think Jaime needs her more than she needs him! ;)

[lunylucy]

Yeah, I definitely agree that her validation of Jaime is more important. We haven't really seen as much of Jaime validating her, tbh (other than giving her the sword, but she's been valued for her skill and such before- the only real validation he can give her now is romantic, which totally needs to happen to even the scales, amirite? >.>) In all seriousness though, I guess Martin is just fond of reversing tropes (and J/B already has the double reverse Beauty/Beast thing- double because personality-wise Jaime is meant to be the Beast after all).

I wonder if you could find neutral people to talk to. I feel like people would either love or hate this ship, especially if they're Jaime fans (which most people seem to be).

[misstopia]

Well it's definitely true that there's a HUGE sense of "Oh poor ugly/old/inferior/awkward guy who just can't catch a break with the ladies, why won't some woman come along and love them as they deserve!" in ASOIAF. HUUUUUGE. I definitely am not opposed to seeing the scales tipped a little :P Plus it shouldn't be that a romantic storyline involving a Brienne-like character is impossible just because of these other possibly related issues. I dunno, I still think Martin handled it well. I actually felt like the reversals and playing around with the trope also serves to break the trope down, but maybe that's just me.

I think some people don't like it because they find Brienne a wish fulfillment character. And then there are those that like both characters but feel like she is out to change him and have a problem with that. Maybe it reads to them like a fable that says that if you try hard enough, you can change a man to being good, and I would understand why that's problematic. But I didn't feel like that myself. Jaime's

[matitablu]

(quickly because I have to go to beeeddd, might come back for more)

I am maybe one of maybe seven people alive who ships Ned/Cat (at least openly)Okay, who are the other five? :P

[misstopia]

Hey there's, uh. Emily. And Tako. I think they're kind of that couple that's supposed to be there because they're mom and dad, and mom and dad have to be there. Like those teen shows that are anchored by one parental couple to whose house everyone comes over after school, has heart-to-hearts with because their own parents are too rich or alcoholic to care, etc. They're established so they get a basic amount of acceptance, unless you get into severe Cat hatred territory.

Yeah, that's why I really loved Sun/Jin actually, I like romances but I like stories about relationships too. I find it weird to never think about what happens after you get together, ever after is a long time after all

[matitablu]

Like those teen shows that are anchored by one parental couple to whose house everyone comes over after school, has heart-to-hearts with because their own parents are too rich or alcoholic to care, etc.

...are they Mr. and Mrs. Walsh? (omg I'm so old)

And oh, I had forgotten to tackle the Mad Men part. Well, it's a show I'm really ship neutral about, so maybe that's the reason I don't have strong opinions on this matter XD Though I agree that if Don and Peggy became an item there would be a high risk of slipping into Male Validation mode, because Peggy started out as Don's subordinate and then has sort of become his pupil/special project. I don't mind the validation on a professional level - Don is the best at what he does like Wolverine, so it's like getting good grades by a very competent teacher. Though I think that one of this season's themes might be the new counterculture becoming mainstream, and if Don can't keep up with that as a creative, Peggy might overrun him. But on a personal level I wouldn't mind seeing them open up

[misstopia]

Yes, yes they are! XD

Peggy might overcome Don, or become Don, or still have the lingering fear of him she still seems to have, but it's extremely important that Weiner gave her more people to play with than Don (and Joan), it gives her room to be her own person.

I don't think their special connection is all about just friendship and trust though, it's also because they're professional, and they can expect discretion. Just my opinion of course, but I kind of like it staying this kind of bristly, not very fuzzy thing, though possibly it's because I don't think Don is capable of real friendship. Like Roger told him, he doesn't really get or respect people (I'm forgetting the quote, but it was one time I really respected Roger).

[cyshobbitlass]

This is really interesting. I definitely feel like male validation of female characters is a big romantic trope and it's hard to not write that. I think this is part of the reason I've turned to slash often (there are other reasons, I've psychologically aware of them all) because I've felt uncomfortable dealing with female characters that way and not known how to not do that. One example I can say, and it's funny that you brought up Ron's sexist ass) is that I've often avoiding writing Ron/Hermione even though they are still my otp because I relate more to Ron and want to write from his point of you, but the idea of him validating her is just silly and non canon

[misstopia]

Why do you think it's hard not to write that? I'm not trying to put you on the defensive, just wondering what insights might be there. I mean, anybody (any gender/orientation) can feel flattered by such attention, that's just human. You wouldn't have to get rid of that entirely, you can (for example) mix it up with other narrative goals and still have that "Oh you DO love me/like me/think I'm hot!" element

[cyshobbitlass]

I find it hard not to write that because the trope is so common I think. I think I'm just afraid of writing it. I'm afraid of making female characters weak so I avoid writing them I think (but mostly because I make all of my characters weak). But also just because of my own weird ideas about males as more active characters that I know I need to get over

[misstopia]

So there could be a few things going on? Like maybe you have some internalized attitudes but also, people's idea of weaknesses have some wonky gender issues going on too (from a few angles)?

I dunno, speaking as a woman who gets pretty stressed out sometimes, we shrill harpies need our love too ;) I get your issue though. My itch would be to have a male character similar enough to Hermione to make people go, why is it okay for him and yet not for her? I dunno, just pick apart that negative connotation. *shrugs*

ETA: Okay here's a question. Do you find Don and Betty problematic? And aren't they stereotypical man and woman?