Okay, you wrote a lot. And it's been a long day and I can't read all of it now. So I just read until I wanted to say something back to you and stopped. I'll read the rest tomorrow.
So.
There is zero doubt in my mind that if Joe wanted Billy, sexually, and Billy said “Stop”, Joe would have stopped. Look at his face at the end of the final fight. Joe doesn’t want to hurt Billy, even when he wants to hurt Billy, you know? Joe wants Billy’s love and his presence.I'm iffy on this. My impression of Joe is that he is totally capable of lashing out violently at someone he loves. We saw it at the end of the movie and Billy didn't seem shocked by this at all. He fought back, he sneered, but even when Joe started smashing up the guitar Billy didn't seem to be surprised. It definitely hurt him, but he was more angry and resigned than anything else
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(I have to get a CKR icon or two. I have very little that is edgy enough for this discussion.)
IMO, Joe's only real show of violence is when he's at his absolute (and literal) end. It's the last stop before killing himself.
You know the movie far better than I do, so I will concede to your interpretation. We only saw true violence at the end of the movie, as you say. But I'm mostly thinking of Billy's reaction to that violence. It definitely took him by surprise, but he didn't seem shocked by it, which leads me to believe it wasn't the first time something like that happened. I don't think Billy even realized how serious it was for Joe until the guitar thing happened. Remember how Joe was glaring at Billy onstage and shoving him roughly away every time Billy shared his microphone? I don't think Billy was reading Joe very well that night and even though they were rolling around on the floor trading punches, Billy's attitude was more along the lines of "yeah, it's just Joe being an asshole and losing it again
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No, I think you should keep using those icons. It's sorta hilarious. :-)
As for the sex, I don't see attraction there either.
Right. I mean, there's intense attraction, but it's not sexual. I feel like it's bigger than that --- which is sorta why I don't care whether they had sex, you know?
I would care if they were gay, but I don't think they are. If they were essentially a gay couple, I would care a lot whether or not they had sex. But their relationship, which is one of my favorite relationships on film, isn't about that. I don't see sex as some sort of higher level for them, so I don't really care. (Not that I wouldn't watch...oh, sorry, did I type that out loud?)
It definitely took him by surprise, but he didn't seem shockedYes, I see what you're seeing. I can't draw a line from that to rape, but I do see what you're seeing. I think it's very logical to conclude that Billy's non-reaction is due to Joe having a pattern of violence
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Comments 45
So.
There is zero doubt in my mind that if Joe wanted Billy, sexually, and Billy said “Stop”, Joe would have stopped. Look at his face at the end of the final fight. Joe doesn’t want to hurt Billy, even when he wants to hurt Billy, you know? Joe wants Billy’s love and his presence.I'm iffy on this. My impression of Joe is that he is totally capable of lashing out violently at someone he loves. We saw it at the end of the movie and Billy didn't seem shocked by this at all. He fought back, he sneered, but even when Joe started smashing up the guitar Billy didn't seem to be surprised. It definitely hurt him, but he was more angry and resigned than anything else ( ... )
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IMO, Joe's only real show of violence is when he's at his absolute (and literal) end. It's the last stop before killing himself.
You know the movie far better than I do, so I will concede to your interpretation. We only saw true violence at the end of the movie, as you say. But I'm mostly thinking of Billy's reaction to that violence. It definitely took him by surprise, but he didn't seem shocked by it, which leads me to believe it wasn't the first time something like that happened. I don't think Billy even realized how serious it was for Joe until the guitar thing happened. Remember how Joe was glaring at Billy onstage and shoving him roughly away every time Billy shared his microphone? I don't think Billy was reading Joe very well that night and even though they were rolling around on the floor trading punches, Billy's attitude was more along the lines of "yeah, it's just Joe being an asshole and losing it again ( ... )
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As for the sex, I don't see attraction there either.
Right. I mean, there's intense attraction, but it's not sexual. I feel like it's bigger than that --- which is sorta why I don't care whether they had sex, you know?
I would care if they were gay, but I don't think they are. If they were essentially a gay couple, I would care a lot whether or not they had sex. But their relationship, which is one of my favorite relationships on film, isn't about that. I don't see sex as some sort of higher level for them, so I don't really care. (Not that I wouldn't watch...oh, sorry, did I type that out loud?)
It definitely took him by surprise, but he didn't seem shockedYes, I see what you're seeing. I can't draw a line from that to rape, but I do see what you're seeing. I think it's very logical to conclude that Billy's non-reaction is due to Joe having a pattern of violence ( ... )
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