Homosexuality in Britain (5th/6th century AC): Celts, Saxons, Picts and Scots

[lucre_noin]

I usually write a lot of arthurian stories but this time I'd love to document well myself about homosexuality and arthurian times.
The story is in 5th/6th century and the societies/cultures in the stories are: Celts, Picts, Scots, Saxons and Celts conquered by Romans. And, of course, one of the male characters is in love with another male character.

Comments

[lil_shepherd]

Just to suggest that you view any definitive statement, like the one you quote, with some scepticism unless it is backed up by textual reference (and even then you have to be careful.) I suspect any answer you get will be extrapolation from later texts that passed through the hands of both Celtic and Catholic churchmen.

I am not well read in this area (and my normal go-to academic is at the World Fantasy Con) but I do know it is an area where little is known for certain.

[lucre_noin]

Yes, I considered it a suspicious site because of the lack of sources and references in books.

Thank you for your answer, knowing that actually there is a general and huge lack of informations about this makes me feel less guilty for my past stories written without even looking for it : D

[corvideye]

The site you're referencing looks like somebody's invented fantasy world. Out of curiosity I did some quick searches for "Carde" and "Almaline" and didn't bring up any other relevant sites, and there's an "all original work copyright" at the bottom of the page (not to mention a complete lack of any sources if it was trying to be historical). Another page on the same site mentions a conlang (constructed language). So I would ignore that site.

If you didn't see it, this previous post might have some better links:

http://little-details.livejournal.com/3044564.html

Keep in mind that there's a severe lack of written records from the native point of view in that period, so a lot of what they thought/ believed about cultural mores is unknown or highly conjectural.

[seasight]

Also, wasn't it the ancient Celts who were supposedly A-OK with homosexuality and Free Love? And that was almost certainly Roman propaganda, whether it was true or not. By the 5th century Britain's been Roman for 400+ years. So bear that in mind!

[lucre_noin]

Yes, I read in some novels that Celts were ok with homosexuality but still they were novels. I'll keep in mind the Roman propaganda : D I didn't even think about it! Thank you.

[lucre_noin]

Oh my, I didn't notice it was an original work but still I noticed the absence of sources D:

Thank you for the link! And the answer : D

[seasight]

When I was studying medieval Irish/Scottish literature and poetry, there was an awful lot of emphasis on being the Manliest Man In The Room (with bonus Super Hot Wife); that seems to imply that homosexuality wasn't an accepted thing by the 5th c AD.

Sorry that I can't think of anything more specific. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable will help out!

[lucre_noin]

That's interesting! I'll look for some Scottish texts to see how the woman and the men are viewed.
Thank you very much : D

[charlycrash]

there was an awful lot of emphasis on being the Manliest Man In The Room

I have no idea about the societies in question, but bear in mind that this being antithetical to being homosexual is a cultural value and not something logically necessary. Thus, hot wife aside, it may not mean anything.

The Spartans were about the most absurdly macho society in history, and they were so thoroughly used to homosexuality that on their wedding nights they had to get their brides to dress up like boys.

[seasight]

That is true.

[sollersuk]

Gildas on penance may be relevant:

"A presbyter or a deacon committing natural fornication or sodomy who has perviously taken the monastic vow shall do penance for three years" (details follow).

"If any monk of lower rank (does this), he shall do penance for three years, but his allowance of bread shall be increased."

In other words, no differentiation is made as to the sinfulness of the two activities. At the time British monasticism differed quite a lot from continental forms, so probably reflects Romano-British attitudes.

Note that for this period the "Romano-" bit is still important. Gildas had had a good education and in the "De Excidio" quotes Virgil frequently; his Latin is much purer than that of his contemporaries across the Channel.

[lucre_noin]

What does he mean by Sodomy? I tought that the word meaning "homosexual acts" was used later.

Thank you very much : D I'm going to read Gildas <3

[sollersuk]

"Sodomita" in the original. It meant then the same as it did later. The first use in English that I can trace is around 1300, when Middle English hadn't been going for long, taken from the French "sodomie", which goes back significantly earlier and derives from the Latin word. The only other possible meaning is the literal "inhabitant of the town of Sodom" which clearly is not intended here.

If you can get hold of the Phillimore edition, it's got the translation and the original. But both are available online, though from different sources.

[laurose8]

Just to clarify, for my own muddle headedness. It didn't mean anal intercourse with females as well, then?

[lytrigian]

The question is rather confused. Why, if you're writing an Arthurian story set in the 5-6th centuries, are you interested in pre-Roman British mores on homosexuality?

Arthur and his real historical antecedents were, of course, not only post-Roman conquest, but also post-Christianization. The British Celts were converted by the 5th century when the Roman Legions withdrew, but the island had to be re-converted after the pagan Anglo-Saxon migrations/invasions. British Celtic attitudes of the time would be Christian, not pre-Roman.

[lucre_noin]

I am sorry, I didn't explain myself well.
I am interested in pre-Roman British because I'd love for some characters to have also a pre-Roman influence on their culture (I'd actually prefer a Scots-related culture but I can go with the pre-Roman Celts too).

But I'd like to see also how were Christian Celtic in that time... was homosexuality (I know I use this word anachronistically) a sin in those ages?

[lil_shepherd]

Ah. Most of Scotland was never part of the Empire, and the line of the Antonine wall is basically the limit of Roman influence. (And it is much less between Hadrian's wall and the Antonine Wall.) On the other hand, there are even fewer sources for this, and the older, period.

[sollersuk]

You can certainly have pre-Roman influences; as recently as the 1960s (I don't have data for later) there were a disconcerting number of Celtic practices in places well into the middle of England. One problem, though, is that even before the Roman conquest, Britannia couldn't be treated as one culture; in the South East they had already taken on a lot of Roman attributes, such as towns, roads and money using devices from Roman coins, whereas in the West, particularly Wales, many practices, such as attitudes to marriage and illegitimacy, continued into the Middle Ages. The same area that embraced Roman culture happily later embraced Saxon culture