Homosexuality in Britain (5th/6th century AC): Celts, Saxons, Picts and Scots

[lucre_noin]

I usually write a lot of arthurian stories but this time I'd love to document well myself about homosexuality and arthurian times.
The story is in 5th/6th century and the societies/cultures in the stories are: Celts, Picts, Scots, Saxons and Celts conquered by Romans. And, of course, one of the male characters is in love with another male character.

Comments

[lytrigian]

The question is rather confused. Why, if you're writing an Arthurian story set in the 5-6th centuries, are you interested in pre-Roman British mores on homosexuality?

Arthur and his real historical antecedents were, of course, not only post-Roman conquest, but also post-Christianization. The British Celts were converted by the 5th century when the Roman Legions withdrew, but the island had to be re-converted after the pagan Anglo-Saxon migrations/invasions. British Celtic attitudes of the time would be Christian, not pre-Roman.

[lucre_noin]

I am sorry, I didn't explain myself well.
I am interested in pre-Roman British because I'd love for some characters to have also a pre-Roman influence on their culture (I'd actually prefer a Scots-related culture but I can go with the pre-Roman Celts too).

But I'd like to see also how were Christian Celtic in that time... was homosexuality (I know I use this word anachronistically) a sin in those ages?

[lil_shepherd]

Ah. Most of Scotland was never part of the Empire, and the line of the Antonine wall is basically the limit of Roman influence. (And it is much less between Hadrian's wall and the Antonine Wall.) On the other hand, there are even fewer sources for this, and the older, period.

[sollersuk]

You can certainly have pre-Roman influences; as recently as the 1960s (I don't have data for later) there were a disconcerting number of Celtic practices in places well into the middle of England. One problem, though, is that even before the Roman conquest, Britannia couldn't be treated as one culture; in the South East they had already taken on a lot of Roman attributes, such as towns, roads and money using devices from Roman coins, whereas in the West, particularly Wales, many practices, such as attitudes to marriage and illegitimacy, continued into the Middle Ages. The same area that embraced Roman culture happily later embraced Saxon culture

[sollersuk]

Further thoughts on attitudes to sin: it was considered sinful to go to the Baths. One bishop wrote a furious letter to another bishop, asking why he went to the Baths twice a day. Tongue firmly in cheek, he replied that it was because there wasn't enough time in the day to go more often.

In the 5th century, the Pope wrote to the bishop of Lyon criticising him for attending services at the synagogue every Saturday. The bishop didn't exactly FIWPB because the letter survives; he just went on doing it.

[randomstasis]

*snickers*
although I agree that sin is a very Christian concept, and OP should note the fact that priests complained about something implies that it is in fact happening, at least in some sense which includes "as interpreted in their twisted little minds"
I believe the injunction against baths originates in two "sins"; bathing feels good and makes you look good, and seeing other naked people gets you all hot and bothered, which causes you to want to do something about that. So naturally frequent bathing meant intentional frequent fornication...

[sollersuk]

The Baths thing was connected with the growing use for prostitution. There is a very odd reason why Christians were told not to frequent brothels: many abandoned children ended up in brothels, and there was a real risk that a man might inadvertently commit incest with a sister or daughter.

Times at the Baths were separate for men and women so men seeing nude women (and vice versa) wasn't an issue.

[randomstasis]

Ah, was it growing? I rather thought it was common;)

knew that about brothels- and have a rant all set about the Church's treatment of illegitimate children in that case and in general,btw

"men seeing nude women (and vice versa) wasn't an issue"
but given the OP's question, segregated baths are still relevant to the issue.

[charlycrash]

There's a Roman joke:

The Emperor Augustus hears of a man in Rome from the provinces who looks eerily like him. Intrigued, he has the man brought to his palace. He asks him: "Tell me, did you mother used to visit Rome?"

The man replies "No, Majesty, but my father visited all the time."

[corvideye]

FIWPB?

[lytrigian]

What might have been sinful and to what degree as canonized by the Church may not be the same thing as social acceptability, and I don't think one can be taken as a reliable guide to the other

[cloudsinvenice]

as recently as the 1960s (I don't have data for later) there were a disconcerting number of Celtic practices in places well into the middle of England.

You've piqued my curiosity - can you recommend any books or websites that would be good for reading up on that?

[lytrigian]

Picts were probably Celts who appear to have spoken a Brythonic language or perhaps one closer to Gaulish, and both Picts and other Celtic groups both did nasty things to each other. It was they way things were done back then. In any event, they eventually assimilated into the Gaelic kingdom of Dal Raita, so there can't have been THAT much bad blood between them -- or no more than was usual, anyway.

This isn't certain, and there's certainly enough wiggle room in current theory to make Picts out to be non-Indo-Europeans if you like, but that's not the current state of thought on the subject.

Don't believe everything you hear from the SCA or Rennies. After all, the more southerly Britons and Gauls were Celts too, and they were happily Romanized enough to love their hot baths too. (I happen to have a fragment of ceramic insulation from a British hypocaust given to me by an archaeologist.)

[sollersuk]

I'd say Brythonic in that Pictish seems to use the same mutation after the first person possessive pronoun (nasal) as opposed to Breton and Cornish (aspirate, like Gaelic). Things could get tricky because the Gaels had patrilinear inheritance and the Picts had matrilinear; that was how the kingdoms were fused. I've lost the reference but there was a big scandal at a coeducational monastic school when an Irish noble was found in bed with a Pictish heiress.

The Panegyric of Constantine refers to "Caledonians and other Picts" so on that basis and the language issue I'd definitely go for Celts.

Full agreement about the South East. Archaeologically speaking, they seem to have been very quick to pick up whatever new trend appeared on our shores.

[lucre_noin]

Yes i know : D in fact I talked about "sin" in the question about the Christianism.

I know Celts and Picts were different tribes. My idea of creating a character as a celt or as a picts will depend on what tribe I will find most interesting. That's the reason I asked the question as it was formed by three different questions: Celts, Picts and Scots.

the Baddest guy is a man's man, capable of manhandling other men as well as the Awesome Wife
That's true and interesting. Thank you!