"Welsh" and "Wales" are derived from the AS word "wealas", which apparently means "foreigner". (A mediaevalist of my acquaintance tells me it can also mean "slave".)
"Scottish", "Scot", "Scotland", etc. come from the name of an Irish tribe, the Scotti, who invaded Scotland in 423. (The man you may be thinking of is Duns Scotus, who lived long after these events.)
Brythonic languages such as Welsh, and the Gaelic languages, are not mutually intelligible. Opinion appears to be divided as to whether Brythonic languages are mutually intelligible-- say, whether a Cornish speaker can understand anything of Welsh.
The language Breton, a member of the Brythonic branch of Celtic allied to Welsh and Cornish, is spoken in northwestern France.
I thought there was something in Brittany (sp?). I guess that is Breton?
Nothing anywhere else in all of Europe? I heard that once most of Western Europe spoke Celtic.
Yes, I guess I got Duns Scotus mixed up with the Scotti. Thanks for correcting me.
As for whether or not a Welsh speaker could understand a Cornish speaker ... can't they just put two of them in a room and SEE if they can understand each other?
Hmmm, I had another question or comment, but I forgot it.
Yes, Celtic used to have a much wider range than it does now.
As for the Welsh/Cornish thing: well, they could. I don't know for sure, myself: I have only a basic ability in Welsh, and no Cornish, so I'm not really qualified to judge for myself from either direction, and I've heard anecdotal evidence from both sides.
As for whether or not a Welsh speaker could understand a Cornish speaker ... can't they just put two of them in a room and SEE if they can understand each other?
Not really. Cornish has been dead for a while, and although some people are trying to revive it, putting a speaker of "Modern Cornish" in a room with a speaker of Modern Welsh wouldn't tell you anything about whether the two languages were mutually intelligible back before Cornish died out.
Yep, but I gather the "Barabara" of the Greeks was deeply derogatory. Don't know if welsh ever had that connotation.
If you go digging a bit in Linguaphiles you'll find that the word for "German" in slavic languages comes from the word for "mute"; somebody not being able to communicate in civilised speech.
I don't think so. The "Corn" part comes from a tribal name (Kernow?) and the "wall" part comes from the aforementioned word for "foreigner", just like Wales itself.
It's theorised that Common Germanic *walxaz "foreigner" represents a borrowing of the Celtic ethnonym Volcae (which may represent a PIE root *welk). The Volcae once occupied much of western Germany until being pushed out by the Germanic expansion that started about three thousand years ago. It's not surprising that the Germanic tribes should have adopted their name and applied it indiscriminately to all non-Slavic foreigners that they came across, from the Vlachs to the Welsh to the Rhaetians to the Romans.
Welsh isn't really spoken outside Wales in Europe, but it is spoken in the Patagonia region of Argentina, in fact it is argued to be a purer form, since it is less diluted by English, professors have apparently been sent to Welsh Universities from there.
A friend of mine who's a native Welsh speaker tells me that she found it an interesting challenge to speak to Patagonians, since ordinary codeswitching was impossible. (There was no way of dropping "magazine" in, you had to remember to say "cylchgrawn".)
Does Patagonian Welsh not have any Spanish influences? I had the impression it was only spoken in really remote communities...but surely they must have some interaction with Argetinian authorites!
Of course they do. I think the impression that they speak a "purer" Welsh comes from the effect marnanel is describing: Patagonian Welsh speakers can't code switch with Spanish as they would normally do, since a Welsh speaker of Wales wouldn't be able to follow it, so they are forced to stick to "pure Welsh". The ignorance of Spanish among most Welsh speakers in Wales also means that it's difficult for them to notice the effects of Spanish influences. They may assume that the differences they hear are examples of "purer Welsh" even in cases where the Patagonian Welsh is more innovative than the Wales Welsh.
There exists a certain degree of intelligibility between the Gaelic languages but it's by no means complete. Native speakers of Ulster Irish (the northernmost dialect) will usually find it easier to decipher a conversation in Scots Gaelic than will someone who speaks a more southerly dialect. That being said, I speak one of those more southern dialects of Irish and can still understand a good bit of spoken Scots Gaelic. Understanding written Scots Gaelic is easier still. I'd imagine the same is true in reverse: that Scots Gaelic speakers find Ulster Irish most intelligible and can understand written Irish with relative ease no matter the dialect.
As for Manx, I've only heard it spoken on one or two occasions and actually found it less intelligible than Scots Gaelic, but that could just be because of Manx's overall unfamiliarity to me. It's also more difficult to decipher written Manx because of its peculiar, English-based orthography.
> I'd imagine the same is true in reverse: that Scots Gaelic speakers find Ulster Irish most intelligible and can understand written Irish with relative ease no matter the dialect.
This is exactly my experience! I can read Irish with a dictionary, it just takes a looooong time looking up the words (the lexical differences are much greater than the structural differences) and I lose patience. :-) And of what I've heard of the spoken language, I find Ulster Irish the most easily intelligible. Which is why I really want to learn Ulster Irish, though I'm teetering on the verge of giving up and going for Connemara Irish instead, due to a thorough lack of quality learning materials for Ulster Irish.
>As for Manx, I've only heard it spoken on one or two occasions and actually found it less intelligible than Scots Gaelic, but that could just be because of Manx's overall unfamiliarity to me.I personally find spoken Manx easier to understand than spoken Irish, but that is no doubt due to the fact that Manx is closer to Scottish Gaelic in both
( ... )
I think my trouble understanding spoken Manx is mostly attributable to lack of exposure. Even without having formally studied Scots Gaelic, I hear it often enough that I can predict ways in which it might differ from Irish and therefore develop a rudimentary understanding of the grammar. This helps me understand the spoken language much better. I just haven't had that same exposure to Manx, for obvious reasons.
(e.g. Manx skee "tired", SG sgìth, Ir tuirseach).
That does exist in Irish as well, most notably in the phrase ag ligint scíthe, meaning "relaxing" (lit: releasing tiredness).
Comments 56
"Scottish", "Scot", "Scotland", etc. come from the name of an Irish tribe, the Scotti, who invaded Scotland in 423. (The man you may be thinking of is Duns Scotus, who lived long after these events.)
Brythonic languages such as Welsh, and the Gaelic languages, are not mutually intelligible. Opinion appears to be divided as to whether Brythonic languages are mutually intelligible-- say, whether a Cornish speaker can understand anything of Welsh.
The language Breton, a member of the Brythonic branch of Celtic allied to Welsh and Cornish, is spoken in northwestern France.
Reply
Nothing anywhere else in all of Europe? I heard that once most of Western Europe spoke Celtic.
Yes, I guess I got Duns Scotus mixed up with the Scotti. Thanks for correcting me.
As for whether or not a Welsh speaker could understand a Cornish speaker ... can't they just put two of them in a room and SEE if they can understand each other?
Hmmm, I had another question or comment, but I forgot it.
Anyway, thanks!
Reply
Yes, Celtic used to have a much wider range than it does now.
As for the Welsh/Cornish thing: well, they could. I don't know for sure, myself: I have only a basic ability in Welsh, and no Cornish, so I'm not really qualified to judge for myself from either direction, and I've heard anecdotal evidence from both sides.
Reply
Not really. Cornish has been dead for a while, and although some people are trying to revive it, putting a speaker of "Modern Cornish" in a room with a speaker of Modern Welsh wouldn't tell you anything about whether the two languages were mutually intelligible back before Cornish died out.
Reply
Basically it means "Somebody speaking an unitelligible language".
Reply
Reply
Reply
If you go digging a bit in Linguaphiles you'll find that the word for "German" in slavic languages comes from the word for "mute"; somebody not being able to communicate in civilised speech.
Reply
(The comment has been removed)
I have heard "Cornwall" means something like "Little Wales" or "South Wales" or something. Is that correct?
Thanks. :)
Reply
Reply
Reply
Reply
Reply
Reply
Reply
As for Manx, I've only heard it spoken on one or two occasions and actually found it less intelligible than Scots Gaelic, but that could just be because of Manx's overall unfamiliarity to me. It's also more difficult to decipher written Manx because of its peculiar, English-based orthography.
Reply
This is exactly my experience! I can read Irish with a dictionary, it just takes a looooong time looking up the words (the lexical differences are much greater than the structural differences) and I lose patience. :-) And of what I've heard of the spoken language, I find Ulster Irish the most easily intelligible. Which is why I really want to learn Ulster Irish, though I'm teetering on the verge of giving up and going for Connemara Irish instead, due to a thorough lack of quality learning materials for Ulster Irish.
>As for Manx, I've only heard it spoken on one or two occasions and actually found it less intelligible than Scots Gaelic, but that could just be because of Manx's overall unfamiliarity to me.I personally find spoken Manx easier to understand than spoken Irish, but that is no doubt due to the fact that Manx is closer to Scottish Gaelic in both ( ... )
Reply
(e.g. Manx skee "tired", SG sgìth, Ir tuirseach).
That does exist in Irish as well, most notably in the phrase ag ligint scíthe, meaning "relaxing" (lit: releasing tiredness).
Reply
Leave a comment