I love this. Dawn meta (or anything really) makes me happy, but I love your focus on her creation and the comparison to her being the first doll. And the look at that for all their good intentions and reasoning, the Monks that made her were just as responsible as the Dollhouse or government officials that made Echo or River into who they were. Dawn will forever live with the knowledge that who she is is who she was made to be, and that can never be unknown or changed. And the effect that it must have on a person I can only imagine.
I also find it interesting that you mentioned that her presence didn't alter things for the rest of the world, not in the big sense. I hadn't really deeply thought about that before, but its very true. She did effect the people around her, she became a part of them (is literally a part of Buffy), but she didn't change anything that happened, her presence didn't change the past. It just inserted an observer into it.
Dawn will forever live with the knowledge that who she is is who she was made to be, and that can never be unknown or changed. And the effect that it must have on a person I can only imagine. Frustratingly, the series never actually seemed to care about the impact that this would have.
It just inserted an observer into it. Saddest fact of Dawn's life.
I'm looking forward to part two! Yay! I'm so glad!
For real. It never occurred to me either until I read gabriellabelle's meta on how Dawn probably didn't have many friends or win competitions or have much of a life at all until she - well, had a life.
but I love this point So glad! The Neo comparison just came to me a couple of days ago and I loved it.
She has no original core she can go searching for. Unlike Echo - who has Echo and Caroline to search for and think about - Dawn has nothing.
Except in some really good fanfiction ;)
But how much is this true for everyone? We are, after all, products of our environment.The difference is - you're talking about an active agent in an environment that influences them. Even identical twins respond differently to their own environment and become different people at the end of the day
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First off, I am astonished and thrilled by this meta - and you're really too kind, because I can't believe I've inspired any of this, so definitely honored to be part of the process here. (I remember asking you something about Dawn and free Will but can't remember my original question!)
I admit I haven't seen the Matrix, Dollhouse etc so I was worried that I wouldn't be able to follow the conversation here, but I needn't have been. You lay this out very clearly - wonderful, thoughtful stuff. I hope it's ok to jump in here, I apologize for not having the chance sooner.
Any action that Dawn took before the age of 14(ish) was done without consent, without her understanding or having an active hand in her actions.And THAT is just amazingly creepy. Even creepier to me is how the implications are totally disregarded not only on the show and in fandom (see my rant upthread - I know you love the Dawn & Spike friendship hon, but it irritates the hell out of me that Dawn exists only to prove Spike's goodness in 99% of Spike & Dawn fanfiction
( ... )
(I remember asking you something about Dawn and free Will but can't remember my original question!) It was attached to a fic I think - it took me a while to find again!
I hope it's ok to jump in here, I apologize for not having the chance sooner. Hope you know that it's always okay to jump in and the conversation will wait for you!
but it irritates the hell out of me that Dawn exists only to prove Spike's goodness in 99% of Spike & Dawn fanfictionI'm going to reiterate: that's not canon (to me) and I really think that you should read the next meta in this series and get back to me. The idea that this happens boggle my mind. And I hate fandom for you. But also - this relationship is *legitimately* important to Dawn and not just to him within canon and is relevant to her development, so the fact that fandom fucked this relationship up for you pisses me off. But I don't buy it? And I ignore factions of fandom that prioritize males over females (straight up
( ... )
Interesting, really interesting! I love your observations of Dawn.
I haven't still decided if I truly believe that the auctor is dead. I'm thinking about it. I still feel that every author has a different touch and a kind of immortality through his works. For example, you can still recognize Dante's works between 1000 different kind of similar works, because he was obsessed with politics, because of his beliefs on God and love, because he wrote like no other ... I feel like he's very alive, even if he's long time dead. I don't know if this makes sense.
I haven't still decided if I truly believe that the author is dead.
As I said: "I’m not going to claim authorial intent."
I know Joss' hand was in Dawn and Echo and River Tam - just as sure as I am that a comparison between these three will reveal something about the Whedonverse that is not necessarily a revelation that can extend past that.
The author is there.
I just CANNOT claim to know their intention.
Does Joss know that Dawn is the predecessor to Echo?
No way to know that in the universe.
Even if I interviewed him personally and asked him if he planned/knew the implications of Dawn and he gave me a straight answer.
I wouldn't believe him.
That's what I mean when I say "the author is dead" ;)
I believe my ramblings are the standard definition for "the author is dead" - basically too many lit-researchers got heavy-handed with attributing everything in, fiction to merely be a reflection of the author. biographers, etc, looking for connections between the author's mind and the text.
Roland Barthes coined the term in this essay back in 1967 and it has been pretty standard in literature studies since. I should have introduced it better and I apologize. It's one of those things I shouldn't presume everyone has heard of :)
It's a school of thought I firmly follow. (Especially after reading TOO many undergraduate classmate's essay on how "this symbolism in the text PROVES THAT POE/HEMINGWAY/SHAKESPEARE IS GAY" ...)
I can't claim to know what is in a writer's mind.
I can see things in my own fic that are about my mind - but it would be EXTREMELY UNCOMFORTABLE if someone else tried to tell me how my fiction relates to my own psychological profile.
So I respect other authors enough not to do that either.
You know, everything you say just serves to remind me what a damn shame it is that fandom isn't more interested in Dawn Summers. Because. The construction of her character is THE MOST FASCINATING? I MEAN RIGHT? WHAT IS THE WORLD ACTUALLY?!
The series and the writers really shafted Dawn. It's gross.
That article sounds interesting!
Her struggle isn't about wanting to be ordinary, it's about wanting to be SOMEONE. You can't compare it to Buffy's journey because even under duress the Slayer is still a subject, whereas the Key is just a tool. /o\ THIS!
I couldn't have possibly said it better myself. Ever.
The themes that run through Joss' work are so much fun and so interesting.
I read an interesting article the other day that said that the best thing about Buffy is that it isn't about "finding" one identity but dealing with multiple identities (because people are complex, etc.).
I'm still trying to figure out how Dawn's character works under that theme.I'm going to cut and paste what I said upthread to Lynzie because I'm lazy. I don't know if this makes any sense: There's an irony in that even though she has to make herself "real" to claim "Dawn" as her identity, in many ways she's nearly the only character who isn't playing with personas. That is, being created out of whole cloth is such a huge project that William turning himself into Spike, Angel/Angelus, Andrew's romanticized fantasies, even Buffy'
( ... )
I've only read the first chapter but God it's wonderful. Beautifully written, enthralling, hot, deep... Running out of adjectives. THANK YOU for the link. I can't make the words. Nope.
Comments 46
I also find it interesting that you mentioned that her presence didn't alter things for the rest of the world, not in the big sense. I hadn't really deeply thought about that before, but its very true. She did effect the people around her, she became a part of them (is literally a part of Buffy), but she didn't change anything that happened, her presence didn't change the past. It just inserted an observer into it.
I'm looking forward to part two!
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Dawn will forever live with the knowledge that who she is is who she was made to be, and that can never be unknown or changed. And the effect that it must have on a person I can only imagine.
Frustratingly, the series never actually seemed to care about the impact that this would have.
It just inserted an observer into it.
Saddest fact of Dawn's life.
I'm looking forward to part two!
Yay! I'm so glad!
Thanks for reading and commenting!
Reply
For real. It never occurred to me either until I read gabriellabelle's meta on how Dawn probably didn't have many friends or win competitions or have much of a life at all until she - well, had a life.
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(The comment has been removed)
So glad! The Neo comparison just came to me a couple of days ago and I loved it.
She has no original core she can go searching for.
Unlike Echo - who has Echo and Caroline to search for and think about - Dawn has nothing.
Except in some really good fanfiction ;)
But how much is this true for everyone? We are, after all, products of our environment.The difference is - you're talking about an active agent in an environment that influences them. Even identical twins respond differently to their own environment and become different people at the end of the day ( ... )
Reply
I admit I haven't seen the Matrix, Dollhouse etc so I was worried that I wouldn't be able to follow the conversation here, but I needn't have been. You lay this out very clearly - wonderful, thoughtful stuff. I hope it's ok to jump in here, I apologize for not having the chance sooner.
Any action that Dawn took before the age of 14(ish) was done without consent, without her understanding or having an active hand in her actions.And THAT is just amazingly creepy. Even creepier to me is how the implications are totally disregarded not only on the show and in fandom (see my rant upthread - I know you love the Dawn & Spike friendship hon, but it irritates the hell out of me that Dawn exists only to prove Spike's goodness in 99% of Spike & Dawn fanfiction ( ... )
Reply
It was attached to a fic I think - it took me a while to find again!
I hope it's ok to jump in here, I apologize for not having the chance sooner.
Hope you know that it's always okay to jump in and the conversation will wait for you!
but it irritates the hell out of me that Dawn exists only to prove Spike's goodness in 99% of Spike & Dawn fanfictionI'm going to reiterate: that's not canon (to me) and I really think that you should read the next meta in this series and get back to me. The idea that this happens boggle my mind. And I hate fandom for you. But also - this relationship is *legitimately* important to Dawn and not just to him within canon and is relevant to her development, so the fact that fandom fucked this relationship up for you pisses me off. But I don't buy it? And I ignore factions of fandom that prioritize males over females (straight up ( ... )
Reply
I haven't still decided if I truly believe that the auctor is dead. I'm thinking about it. I still feel that every author has a different touch and a kind of immortality through his works. For example, you can still recognize Dante's works between 1000 different kind of similar works, because he was obsessed with politics, because of his beliefs on God and love, because he wrote like no other ... I feel like he's very alive, even if he's long time dead. I don't know if this makes sense.
Reply
I haven't still decided if I truly believe that the author is dead.
As I said: "I’m not going to claim authorial intent."
I know Joss' hand was in Dawn and Echo and River Tam - just as sure as I am that a comparison between these three will reveal something about the Whedonverse that is not necessarily a revelation that can extend past that.
The author is there.
I just CANNOT claim to know their intention.
Does Joss know that Dawn is the predecessor to Echo?
No way to know that in the universe.
Even if I interviewed him personally and asked him if he planned/knew the implications of Dawn and he gave me a straight answer.
I wouldn't believe him.
That's what I mean when I say "the author is dead" ;)
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Roland Barthes coined the term in this essay back in 1967 and it has been pretty standard in literature studies since. I should have introduced it better and I apologize. It's one of those things I shouldn't presume everyone has heard of :)
It's a school of thought I firmly follow. (Especially after reading TOO many undergraduate classmate's essay on how "this symbolism in the text PROVES THAT POE/HEMINGWAY/SHAKESPEARE IS GAY" ...)
I can't claim to know what is in a writer's mind.
I can see things in my own fic that are about my mind - but it would be EXTREMELY UNCOMFORTABLE if someone else tried to tell me how my fiction relates to my own psychological profile.
So I respect other authors enough not to do that either.
angearia wrote a really ( ... )
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I MEAN RIGHT? WHAT IS THE WORLD ACTUALLY?!
The series and the writers really shafted Dawn. It's gross.
That article sounds interesting!
Her struggle isn't about wanting to be ordinary, it's about wanting to be SOMEONE. You can't compare it to Buffy's journey because even under duress the Slayer is still a subject, whereas the Key is just a tool. /o\
THIS!
I couldn't have possibly said it better myself. Ever.
The themes that run through Joss' work are so much fun and so interesting.
too bad he's a douche
YOU, I LOVE.
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Jumping in here - I think you're talking about "A New Version of You" by Kim O'Connor? One of the GREATEST THINGS EVER: http://the-toast.net/2013/08/14/buffy-the-vampire-slayer-a-new-version-of-you/
I'm still trying to figure out how Dawn's character works under that theme.I'm going to cut and paste what I said upthread to Lynzie because I'm lazy. I don't know if this makes any sense: There's an irony in that even though she has to make herself "real" to claim "Dawn" as her identity, in many ways she's nearly the only character who isn't playing with personas. That is, being created out of whole cloth is such a huge project that William turning himself into Spike, Angel/Angelus, Andrew's romanticized fantasies, even Buffy' ( ... )
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And I agree with you completely. It makes me wonder if BtVS was too small a show for Dawn, weirdly.
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If there are any fics that address the sheer fucked-up-ittide of all this I NEED them in my life.
I know of no better fic to suit your needs than this: Kindred Spirits
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